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EoD - SS motion

GN Podcast #466

EoD - Zelda music

EoD - Fatal Frame

EoD - Smash C-stick

EoD - Old games
 

Nintendo says they're not making too many Mario games, new mechanics make for a new IP-like experience

Coming from a Shacknews interview with Nintendo of America senior director of corporate communications Charlie Scibetta.

"We think we're putting out the right number of Mario games based on what fans are asking for, based on what our own developers' creative visions are. The key to that is as long as there's innovation is occurring within the gameplay, as long as there's new features, then marrying the characters and the IPs that people love is the right call from our standpoint.

If you look at something like Super Mario 3D World, the gameplay on that one that I find really cool is those transparent warp points. Usually you used to go into one and pop out the other, and that was the end of the gameplay experience. Now, there's a whole dynamic there where you can navigate in there, try to avoid enemies, try to get a better advantage. You could theoretically make a whole new game with those kind of gameplay dynamics.

If we didn't put Mario on it, then it would just seem like a new IP. Because there's those new gameplay dynamics like that, we think there's the innovation there that will keep people interested and keep the Mario brand fresh. You could call all the games that we're making here new IP in the sense that they're new gameplay experiences. They just happen to also have the IP that people associate with."

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59 total comments (View all)
User avatar
27 Jun 2013 16:48

Mario needs to take a break. Fo realz now.
User avatar
27 Jun 2013 17:17

cberger wrote:
SgtFly wrote:Galaxy 2 and Dark Moon both gave up the great atmosphere and music that their precursors had in favor of just making the gameplay better and whoopdedoo, they were both crap games.


Super Mario Galaxy: 11 million units in 6 years
Super Mario Galaxy 2: 7 million units in 3 years
Dark Moon: 2 million units in 3 months

Yup, definitely crap.



Why are we comparing game sales? Last time I checked, sales and money in general have nothing to do with how a game plays and how the public receives the game.
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27 Jun 2013 17:26

Putting things in perspective, Super Mario Galaxy 2 is probably my favorite game of all time. And New Super Mario Bros. U, at it's core, is one of the best 2D platformers ever.

I am a huge fan of Mario and I know that every Mario game to come will wreak of sheer quality. However, I am all for Nintendo taking a break from Mario after Mario Kart 8 comes out.
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27 Jun 2013 17:33

FireFoxMcCloud wrote:
cberger wrote:
SgtFly wrote:Galaxy 2 and Dark Moon both gave up the great atmosphere and music that their precursors had in favor of just making the gameplay better and whoopdedoo, they were both crap games.


Super Mario Galaxy: 11 million units in 6 years
Super Mario Galaxy 2: 7 million units in 3 years
Dark Moon: 2 million units in 3 months

Yup, definitely crap.



Why are we comparing game sales? Last time I checked, sales and money in general have nothing to do with how a game plays and how the public receives the game.


If I REALLY wanted to compare game sales, I'd bring up the "New Super Mario Bros." series. My point, however, is that if it were crap, it wouldn't sell.
User avatar
27 Jun 2013 17:42

gatorboi352 wrote:I mean think about it, From SNES until the Wii came there were like 4 main Mario games. There's 3 already for Wii U alone (counting Luigi DLC).

I for one am Mario'd out.

The N64 had Mario 64 and that was it. Gamecube had Sunshine, and that was it.

Pump the brakes Nintendo.

Actually, each Nintendo console has had an average of three big Mario adventures.
NES: Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario Bros. 3
SNES: Super Mario World, Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars
N64: Super Mario 64, Paper Mario
GCN: Luigi's Mansion, Super Mario Sunshine, Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Wii: Super Paper Mario, Super Mario Galaxy, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Super Mario Galaxy 2
Wii U: New Super Mario Bros. U, Super Mario 3D World
No Avatar
27 Jun 2013 18:07

Banzai Bill wrote:Actually, each Nintendo console has had an average of three big Mario adventures.
NES: Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario Bros. 3
SNES: Super Mario World, Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars
N64: Super Mario 64, Paper Mario
GCN: Luigi's Mansion, Super Mario Sunshine, Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Wii: Super Paper Mario, Super Mario Galaxy, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Super Mario Galaxy 2
Wii U: New Super Mario Bros. U, Super Mario 3D World


Cut out the spin-offs and you're left with:

NES: Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario Bros. 3
SNES: Super Mario World, Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island
N64: Super Mario 64
GCN: Super Mario Sunshine
Wii: Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2
Wii U: ?

Not that spin-offs are a bad thing, but one set of Mario games' "quality" stands out above the rest for each console.
Considering that Super Mario 3D World takes many steps back from Super Mario Galaxy (even adding in multiplayer!), I'm of the impression the "main" mario game will come at a later time.

The big difference between now and then is, unlike during the GBA era and early DS era, EAD isn't taking old games and re-releasing them for the portable systems. People are conveniently ignoring all the re-releases when thinking about the number of old Mario games.
User avatar
27 Jun 2013 18:09

Personally I wouldn't include the Paper Mario games or Mario RPG. What I'm seeing from that is the more successful the console thr more Mario games we get. Nothing wrong with that.

This is also the first time I've heard Galaxy 2 or Dark Moon to be considered even remotely bad. Go figure it's on what's become Gotrolltendo.com.
No Avatar
27 Jun 2013 18:43

I think you're confusing trolls with people who are displeased with Nintendo trying to justify blatant cashgrabs.
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27 Jun 2013 18:47

SgtFly wrote:I think you're confusing trolls with people who are displeased with Nintendo trying to justify blatant cashgrabs.


If Dark Moon is a cashgrab, what's Call of Duty: The Next Year?
No Avatar
27 Jun 2013 18:56

A cashgrab. Not seeing how that's relevant at all.

Also Dark Moon is less of a cashgrab and more of a sequel that didn't understand why the original game was good, though I'm kinda the minority there and I'll happily admit it's not nearly as abominable as NSMB and the like. To me, Dark Moon tried and failed, but at least it tried. NSMB, 3DL, etc. don't EVEN try.

3D World is looking like a lot more of a sellout because honestly some of the ways they tried to justify the game are ridiculous, I.E,

If you look at something like Super Mario 3D World, the gameplay on that one that I find really cool is those transparent warp points. Usually you used to go into one and pop out the other, and that was the end of the gameplay experience. Now, there's a whole dynamic there where you can navigate in there, try to avoid enemies, try to get a better advantage. You could theoretically make a whole new game with those kind of gameplay dynamics.


Navigating an area and avoiding enemies is not something about your game that you brag about. That's the exact same thing we've been doing in games for decades.

That's like trying to make a Zelda game sound great by telling consumers that you can slash your enemies and pick up hearts.
User avatar
27 Jun 2013 19:26

cberger wrote:
Banzai Bill wrote:Actually, each Nintendo console has had an average of three big Mario adventures.
NES: Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario Bros. 3
SNES: Super Mario World, Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars
N64: Super Mario 64, Paper Mario
GCN: Luigi's Mansion, Super Mario Sunshine, Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
Wii: Super Paper Mario, Super Mario Galaxy, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Super Mario Galaxy 2
Wii U: New Super Mario Bros. U, Super Mario 3D World


Cut out the spin-offs and you're left with:

NES: Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario Bros. 3
SNES: Super Mario World, Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island
N64: Super Mario 64
GCN: Super Mario Sunshine
Wii: Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2
Wii U: ?

Not that spin-offs are a bad thing, but one set of Mario games' "quality" stands out above the rest for each console.
Considering that Super Mario 3D World takes many steps back from Super Mario Galaxy (even adding in multiplayer!), I'm of the impression the "main" mario game will come at a later time.

The big difference between now and then is, unlike during the GBA era and early DS era, EAD isn't taking old games and re-releasing them for the portable systems. People are conveniently ignoring all the re-releases when thinking about the number of old Mario games.

What do you mean by "main" Mario game? Why would you clump adventures with some kind of story and level progression with Mario Party and Mario Kart? If Super Mario RPG is a "spin-off," then Super Mario 64 is a spin-off.
Anyways, back on topic. Super Mario 3D World plays nothing like Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon, which plays nothing like Paper Mario: Sticker Star, which plays nothing like New Super Mario Bros. So I wouldn't say we're at overkill yet. The Mario universe is just a marketable package to sell a variety of gameplay mechanics.
No Avatar
27 Jun 2013 19:48

Banzai Bill wrote:What do you mean by "main" Mario game? Why would you clump adventures with some kind of story and level progression with Mario Party and Mario Kart? If Super Mario RPG is a "spin-off," then Super Mario 64 is a spin-off.


Why would you clump Mario Party with Mario Kart?

A "main" Mario game is defined by 3 major factors:

1) It has the best "atmosphere" of all the qualifying games on that console.
2) It is developed by EAD.
3) It is a natural progression from the previous "main" Mario game, with the original being Super Mario Bros..

Super Mario RPG (and all the Mario RPG games) are spin-offs because of reasons 2 and 3. They are not developed by EAD, nor are they a natural progression from the previous game.

The 3rd criteria can be very tricky to determine at times. Games like Yoshi's Island and Super Mario 3D Land change a lot, and in the case of 3D Land, might even feel backwards. This means certain games are up for debate, but most are not.

If it weren't for the 1st criteria, the New Super Mario Bros. series would be the "main" Mario series. However, its atmosphere is very limited compared to Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy.
User avatar
27 Jun 2013 20:35

cberger wrote:
Banzai Bill wrote:What do you mean by "main" Mario game? Why would you clump adventures with some kind of story and level progression with Mario Party and Mario Kart? If Super Mario RPG is a "spin-off," then Super Mario 64 is a spin-off.


Why would you clump Mario Party with Mario Kart?

A "main" Mario game is defined by 3 major factors:

1) It has the best "atmosphere" of all the qualifying games on that console.
2) It is developed by EAD.
3) It is a natural progression from the previous "main" Mario game, with the original being Super Mario Bros..

Super Mario RPG (and all the Mario RPG games) are spin-offs because of reasons 2 and 3. They are not developed by EAD, nor are they a natural progression from the previous game.

The 3rd criteria can be very tricky to determine at times. Games like Yoshi's Island and Super Mario 3D Land change a lot, and in the case of 3D Land, might even feel backwards. This means certain games are up for debate, but most are not.

If it weren't for the 1st criteria, the New Super Mario Bros. series would be the "main" Mario series. However, its atmosphere is very limited compared to Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy.

Sorry sberger, but I don't think there's an official rulebook for what makes a "main" Mario—whatever that means. Especially if there are such varied opinions on what makes "atmosphere" and "progression" and why such things would make it "main." The way I see it there is 2D Mario, Mario RPGs, 3D Mario, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Mario Sports, etc., each with its own sub-series and gray areas.
No Avatar
27 Jun 2013 20:48

Banzai Bill wrote:Sorry cberger, but I don't think there's an official rulebook for what makes a "main" Mario—whatever that means. Especially if there are such varied opinions on what makes "atmosphere" and "progression" and why such things would make it "main." The way I see it there is 2D Mario, Mario RPGs, 3D Mario, Mario Kart, Mario Party, Mario Sports, etc., each with its own sub-series and gray areas.


Whether or not you agree with the atmosphere and progression, a "main" Mario must be made by EAD, the best development team at Nintendo. Anything else is a spin-off, no matter how good it is.

We could debate until the toads come home, but in the end there isn't one single definition for a "main" Mario game. So since it's little more than my opinion, I'll leave it at "I'm right, you're wrong, TTTTHPBT!"
User avatar
27 Jun 2013 21:18

lol okay wait, is he saying clear warp pipes is enough of a refreshing innovation that it could've been a new IP? God damnit... I want to hit something.
User avatar
27 Jun 2013 21:43

Shaanyboi wrote:lol okay wait, is he saying clear warp pipes is enough of a refreshing innovation that it could've been a new IP? God damnit... I want to hit something.


Don't read too into it. I think he was implying those type of elements would be a breed, if added to another platformer in general, can help make a push to being a new IP. Which, in technicality, he isn't wrong. However, that particular IP idea would probably have to push the boundries and utility of clear pipe navigation to be considered, not just dabbed into some levels.

But still his comment is silly, there is way too much Mario 'vibe' in that game that a new universe won't be able to hide. It would just get scoffed at for -NOT- being Mario!
User avatar
27 Jun 2013 23:55

FireFoxMcCloud wrote:
cberger wrote:
SgtFly wrote:Galaxy 2 and Dark Moon both gave up the great atmosphere and music that their precursors had in favor of just making the gameplay better and whoopdedoo, they were both crap games.


Super Mario Galaxy: 11 million units in 6 years
Super Mario Galaxy 2: 7 million units in 3 years
Dark Moon: 2 million units in 3 months

Yup, definitely crap.



Why are we comparing game sales? Last time I checked, sales and money in general have nothing to do with how a game plays and how the public receives the game.


You'd have a point if all three of those games weren't critically acclaimed by gamers and journalists alike. Don't get me wrong, sales don't necessarily translate to a good game but there's no arguing that the majority sees those games as good games.
User avatar
28 Jun 2013 00:09

But Nintendo... you have too many games with the "Mario" name in them...

...

...no...... New Super Luigi U does not count as a new IP sorry... :mrgreen:

Shaanyboi wrote:lol okay wait, is he saying clear warp pipes is enough of a refreshing innovation that it could've been a new IP? God damnit... I want to hit something.

Here ya go.... hit yourself on a brick wall. ~<3

:banghead:
User avatar
28 Jun 2013 01:06

There has definitely not been a lot of Mario games released between 2012 and end of this year (not including the two Luigi games):

Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games
Mario Party 9
Mario Tennis Open
New Super Mario Bros. 2
Paper Mario: Sticker Star
New Super Mario Bros. U
Mario and Luigi: Dream Team
Mario and Donkey Kong: Minis on the Move 2013
Super Mario 3D World
Mario Kart 8

More! I want more Mario games!
User avatar
28 Jun 2013 03:18

I love Nintendo and I like Mario. That being said, it does start to look a bit too same-y if they keep going to Mario. I don't think they've gone over it yet, but they are getting close. I hope they start showing a lot more non-Mario games too.
User avatar
28 Jun 2013 18:16

SgtFly wrote:

That's like trying to make a Zelda game sound great by telling consumers that you can slash your enemies and pick up hearts.


It's not at all like that since you slash enemies and pick up hearts in every Zelda game. Navigating through clear warp pipes and having to avoid enemies in warp pipes is something entirely new and never before seen in a Mario franchise. On top of that, people are way over-reacting to the comment as it is simply ONE example he is giving to reiterate what they and we have all been saying for a while, and that is that each Mario game contains new ideas and aren't just simple re-hashes(even if they were rehashes and didn't include new ideas, if the quality is there, not many would really care. Nintendo could make Lost Levels 3 and fans would eat it up).

As far as cash grabs go, every single game ever made by anyone to be sold is a cash grab, that is the entire point of making games. 2-D Mario games just happen to be what a huge majority of Mario fans want and they just happen to have quicker dev time, so we get more quicker. Until the games actually become rehashes and don't introduce new ideas, or have some drop in quality, you'll just have to ignore the franchise 'til you feel the itch again, but accusing Nintendo of untrue bs isn't doing you any favors.

Real "cash grabs" are never anywhere near the quality of a Mario game. Oh, and, the pipe navigating mechanic in 3DW could very well make its own game. Maybe like an indy download where you have different stages of clear maze pipes to navigate through as the entire levels. It's very much a true statement.
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28 Jun 2013 20:12

Having fake cardboard Goombas and 1-Ups in 3D Land was entirely new and never before seen in a Mario game but that doesn't make it a feature worth getting excited about. And unless I unknowingly fancy stopping in the middle of a level to perform something akin to completing a maze on the back side of a children's restaurant menu, then I don't see why I should be excited about transparent warp pipes either.

It may just be one example, and hell I could be wrong and the game might have a lot more to it, but the fact that it was the first thing he went to makes it seems more like the game has little to nothing to show for itself.
User avatar
30 Jun 2013 04:57

It's what he went to because it is what has been shown and he can't talk about things not revealed yet. Duh. :-p
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Anonymous
30 Jun 2013 11:54

Shaanyboi wrote:lol okay wait, is he saying clear warp pipes is enough of a refreshing innovation that it could've been a new IP? God damnit... I want to hit something.


Or an old IP, like... umm... Pac-Man (seriously, did you see the gameplay for those clear pipes? It plays just like Pac-Man).

Either way, SM3DW does enough to set it apart from other Mario games, particularly for being the first mulitplayer 3D Mario game. Even if it does build on the SM3DL engine, it's still a significant advancement, just like NSMBW was over NSMBDS.

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