2012 Presidential Election

[Sailing_Day]

well... mathematically your chance of having any effect on the outcome of an election is probably closer to zero than your chance of winning the lottery (especially if you are like me and counted as a resident of a state that overwhelmingly supports a single party)

Furthermore, the public school is worse than prison and I will do everything in my power to keep my daughter out of such a place, because I still remember what it was like to live through that experience. Funny thing is that the worst experiences I had in my life occurred in what most people would consider a "good" "well-funded" prison... I mean school.

many people say that you don't get to complain because you don't vote. I refrain from giving my support to the whole corrupt system. Voting is a suggestion box at a restaurant that doesn't care what you think.

Well, first, that's the mentality that keeps the voter turnout in the presidential elections around 50%, but true, if you're in a state that leans towards a certain party, your vote is next to meaningless. Being a resident of a big swing state, though, it is annoying when someone here says that.

I didn't have that bad of an experience in high school, and I certainly wouldn't compare it to a prison... But I suppose that's also depending on your location and the size of the school.

And I believe the system is corrupt, but voting is the only power we have as a citizen to change that. It's not "a suggestion box" because it's as simple as voting out everyone who doesn't hold the interests of the people in mind. But of course it's not that easy with the astonishing amount of loonies that DO take advantage of their voting rights, and all the vitriol spewed by politicians to keep it that way...

"Ask any American about the income tax and they will all be on the side of Ron Paul there too."

They would be on his side in the abstract, which makes sense because Ron Paul lives in a fantasy land and refuses to deal with reality.

Ask them if they would support the sales increasing by about 400%, and they will not be on his side. Ask them if they would support military spending being drastically cut, and they will not be on his side. Ask them if they would support abolishing medicare and social security, and they will not be on his side. Ask them if they support getting rid of all welfare and unemployment 100%, and they will not be on his side.

Congrats, there goes almost all federal revenue, and those programs constitute about 80% of government spending right there, and voters overwhelmingly punish attempts to cut those things *at all*.

Now ask them if they want to repeal the Civil Rights Act, they will not be on his side. Ask them if they want to legalize hard drugs, and they will not be on his side. Ask them if they support repealing the minimum wage, and they will not be on his side. Ask them if they think democracy is something they need to be protected from, and they will not be on his side.

I was going to make a tl;dr post about Ron Paul too, but you basically summed it up in the most elegant way possible, Hamr.

[Mako]

It looks like Obama is the winner of not only our poll, but of the actual election as well.

Another 4 years of Obama is better than Mitt Romney. Although, I don't like either one of 'em.

[gtt]

It looks like Obama is the winner of not only our poll, but of the actual election as well.

Another 4 years of Obama is better than Mitt Romney. Although, I don't like either one of 'em.

think of it as the bad tasting medicine you need to deal with to stop from dying.

[pummy84]

I didn't agree 100% with either one, but I'll be honest, I'm glad Romney lost. If another candidate was up against Obama, I may have voted for them, but Romney, and also Ryan, just ticked me off too much.

[nGen]

I voted for Barack Obama because in 4 years Republicans should be able to offer up better candidates than Romney. Chris Christie, Marco Rubio... depending on what they say I might actually vote for a Republican.


Unless Hilary Clinton or Elizabeth Warren run.

[KingBroly]

I voted for Barack Obama because in 4 years Republicans should be able to offer up better candidates than Romney. Chris Christie, Marco Rubio... depending on what they say I might actually vote for a Republican.

Unless Hilary Clinton or Elizabeth Warren run.

Warren would never get elected at that level. Not with that baggage. Same goes for Hillary, who said she wouldn't run for public office again anyway. I don't know why people bring that up.

And I don't think the next 4 years are going to be very pretty for the economy. For starters, everyone's taxes go up on January 1st because that's when the Bush Tax Cuts expire. You also have the possibility of the Capital Gains Tax being increased significantly. Third, you also have the looming debt/deficit issue. That's not going away anytime, and it's becoming somewhat of a monolith. Fourth, the question is what type of impact Obamacare's implementation will have on the economy.

From where I stand, given the breakdown in Congress, and knowing that Washington never likes to reform their own bills (to them, once a law is passed, the issue has been solved forever with their perfect, compromised bill), the economy's probably going to come to somewhat of a standstill. You elect people to Washington to fix problems, not blame someone else, and Washington hasn't done that for at least a decade.

[nGen]

I voted for Barack Obama because in 4 years Republicans should be able to offer up better candidates than Romney. Chris Christie, Marco Rubio... depending on what they say I might actually vote for a Republican.

Unless Hilary Clinton or Elizabeth Warren run.

Warren would never get elected at that level. Not with that baggage. Same goes for Hillary, who said she wouldn't run for public office again anyway. I don't know why people bring that up.

And I don't think the next 4 years are going to be very pretty for the economy. For starters, everyone's taxes go up on January 1st because that's when the Bush Tax Cuts expire. You also have the possibility of the Capital Gains Tax being increased significantly. Third, you also have the looming debt/deficit issue. That's not going away anytime, and it's becoming somewhat of a monolith. Fourth, the question is what type of impact Obamacare's implementation will have on the economy.

From where I stand, given the breakdown in Congress, and knowing that Washington never likes to reform their own bills (to them, once a law is passed, the issue has been solved forever with their perfect, compromised bill), the economy's probably going to come to somewhat of a standstill. You elect people to Washington to fix problems, not blame someone else, and Washington hasn't done that for at least a decade.

I agree that neither Warren nor Clinton will run in 2016. But if Warren did she'd have my vote. I think she's brilliant.

As for Bush Tax Cuts, we can't afford them without spending cuts. I'm too poor to worry about capital gains taxes. The fiscal cliff is of worry. I really can't wait for Obamacare to go through because I need to see an eye doctor.

Think of it this way. Since hitting rock bottom with job losses, the US has added 5 million jobs in less than three years. Our economy is going the right way. Slow and steady may not be everybody's preference, but it's better than quick and dangerous.

[nGen]

Hold up! Where is the Gary Johnson or Roseanne Barr option in that poll. Why does Nintendo hate 3rd parties?!?!?!?!?


@KingBroly
Single payer would be the better option, but this will do until that happens. I may have glaucoma developing in my eyes and my job doesn't have health insurance. In 2014 I will be able to afford it thanks to government rebates that will help me afford insurance if my job decides not to offer it. Obamacare might hurt small businesses, but I'm sure they can survive.

[kernal]

im just here to say that obama named dropped my town during his election speech... that is all

[Devil_Rising]

I for one am happy President Obama won re-election. If the GOP in the House weren't so dead-set on being "The Party of No", perhaps he could have gotten a lot more done in his first term. And regardless, now that he doesn't have to worry about re-election, he can perhaps play some real hardball for once. I have always applauded his ideal of trying to be "everybody's president" and his efforts, especially in his first two years, at trying to compromise and be bi-partisan.

The problem is, the other side doesn't believe in bi-partisanship, and that's a fact. While you hear talking heads go on ad nauseum about how "Obama promised to reach across the aisle and he hasn't done that", they're absolutely, 100% full of s***. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that though a supporter, there were many times Obama pissed me off, personally, because he gave too many concessions and wasted too much time pandering to the whiny GOP in the House of Representatives. The problem, at it's root, is that you can't have "bi-partisanship" when one sides' idea of "compromise" is agreeing to all of their terms and none of yours.

"Obamacare" is certainly not what I wanted, not in it's current form. What I wanted, is what Obama originally fought for, which was the so-called "Public Option", a CHOICE for people to buy into, if they wanted to (hence the term OPTION). However, again with the pandering and the pointless concessions (though the Dems had a majority in both chambers at the time), instead of pushing such a thing through, which would have helped millions MORE Americans who still remain uncovered, they caved in for no reason whatsoever and agreed to Republican terms, which evolved into what Republicans turned around and called (derisively) "Obamacare". Something that they helped create, and yet laughably refer to as "Socialism" when it isn't anything of the sort. All it is is a bill that, in the end, helps out the existing insurance industry, because it will bring them more customers. That's Capitalism at it's purest, so anyone trying to call it "Socialism" quite literally doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.


But enough. The point is, I'm happy Romney lost. I'm satisfied that Obama has four more years, despite obvious mass-obstructionism in the House (to the point of them threatening to hold the country hostage by not passing budgets, just to get their way, which if that's not "Un-American", I don't know what is), to try and make some real difference. I like President Obama. I could imagine a much better President (if the bulls*** on Capitol Hill would allow for such a thing), but I could also imagine a hell of a lot worse, and it was frighteningly close to winning this election.

[KingBroly]

He wouldn't have been able to get a public option then, and he most certainly wouldn't be able to get it now. The Public Option basically removes all competition from the equation of Health Care. No Healthcare Provider would dare to compete with the Federal Government.

And Obama's absolutely 100% going to have to move to the right if he wants anything done in the next 2 years. And he's going to have to make a lot of concessions to the Republicans on Obamacare, if he's smart.

[cortjezter]

let's keep it to the election, the results and reactions. this isn't a general politics or platform debate thread.

also, since when are the double posting rules not applicable? ABABAB is still considered double posting.

fair warning before this thread gets prematurely locked.

[Hamr]

Round-up of the results of some of the more notable (and expensive) races:

Elizabeth Warren vs. Scott Brown for Massachoochoo Senate seat: Warren (D)

Shelley Berkley vs. Dean Heller for Nevada Senate seat: Heller (R)

Claire McCaskill vs. Todd Akin for Missouri Senate Seat: McCaskill (D)

Heidi Heitkamp vs. Rick Berg for North Dakota Senate Seat: Heitkamp (D)

Michelle Bachmann vs. Jim Graves for Minnesota House Seat: Bachmann (R)

Amy Klobuchar vs. Kurt Bills for Minnesota Senate Seat: Klobuchar (D)

Paul Ryan vs. Rob Zerban for Wisconsin House Seat: Ryan (R)

Chris Donnelly vs. Richard Mourdock for Indianna Senate Seat: Donnelly (D)

Jeff Flake Vs. Richard Carmona for Arizona Senate Seat: Flake (R)

Pete Hoekstra vs. Debbie Stabenow for Michigan Senate: Stabenow (D)

Tammy Duckworth vs. Joe Walsh (not the guitarist) for Illinois House Seat: Duckworth (D)

Tammy Baldwin vs. Tommy Thompson tom-tom-tim-tam-tom for Wisconsin Senate Seat: Baldwin (D, LGBT)

Jon Tester Vs. Denny Rehlberg for Montana Senate Seat: Tester (D)

Linda Lingle vs. Mazie Hirono for Hawaii Senate Seat: Hirono (D)

Steve King vs. Christie Vilsack for Iowa House Seat: King (R)

Allen West vs. Patrick Murphy for Florida House Seat: Murphy (D)

Alan Grayson vs. Todd Long for Florida House Seat: Grayson (D)

Bill Nelson vs. Connie Mack for Florida Senate Seat: Nelson (D)

Paul Broun vs. Write-in Charles Darwin for Georgia House Seat: Broun (R)

Linda McMahon vs. Chris Murphy for Connecticut Senate Seat: Murphy (D)

Mia Love vs. Jim Matheson for Utah House Seat: Matheson (D)

Sherrod Brown vs. Josh Mandel for Ohio Senate Seat: Brown (D)

Marcie Kaptur vs. Joe "Joe The Plumber" Wurzelbacher for Ohio House seat: Kaptur (D)

Angus King vs. Charlie Summers vs. Cynthia Dill for Maine Senate Seat: King (I)

Bob Kerrey vs. Debbie Fischer for Nebraska Senate Seat: Fischer (R)

John Boehner, Eric Cantor, Nancy Pelosi vs. Whoever for Whatever: The people you have heard of (R, R, D).

House of Reps still controlled by Reps. Senate still controlled by Dems (gained 2 seats). Presidency still controlled by the Hawaiian.

Same-sex Marriage vs. No Same-sex Marriage in Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, and Washington: Same-sex marriage

Collective bargaining protection in Michigan Yes vs. No: No

Marijuana legality in Washington and Colorado Yes vs. No: Yes

Here in California, Prop 30 (tax hike for schools), 35 (harsher punishment of human trafficking), 36 (reform of 3 strikes), 39 (out of state tax loophole closed), and 40 (approval of redistricting plan) passed. Measure B (condoms in pornos) passed. Death penalty repeal, union funding handicap, genetic modified food labeling etc failed. Measure J transportation tax failed with only 65% for 35% against (lol). Feinstein beat whoever was running against Feinstein for the Senate seat. Democrats also won most local races, and are looking at a super-majority in the state legislature.

edit: Nate Silver vs. Dean Chambers: Huge victory for skewed polls

[LordTyroxx]

I voted for Obama for a second time, so of course it's nice to see him being reelected though I only agree with him about 60% of the time. As a resident in NC, I guess I felt obligated to vote for a major party instead of my original favorite, Jill Stein. I would love to see a change in how elections are tallied. Before california and washington's votes came in, people were worried about romney winning in the popular vote. I wonder if this scare is enough to push politicians to move to popular vote considering it has already happened to democrats during Kerry/Bush? That would be great for 3rd party candidates and American motivation.

I would love to see a system like this as well.

Being in a small southern town right now is kind of uneasy. The first time obama was elected, there were people flying their flags upside down and half mast, the schools sent people home for wearing obama shirts, my house got stones threw through the window, and it was just chaotic. This time around, it is a lot more quiet. There is radio silence from my conservative friends on Facebook other than a couple "God help us" posts. I fear for what to come. Thankfully, I'll be moving up to a larger (blue) city in NC in a few months.

[the_nintendo_screw]

I got to say, I'm really disappointed that Prop 37 failed. GMOs should be labelled so people with food sensitivities can make informed decisions about what they eat.

[KingBroly]

I got to say, I'm really disappointed that Prop 37 failed. GMOs should be labelled so people with food sensitivities can make informed decisions about what they eat.

The problem there is that it wouldn't have been worth it to businesses to create different labels/names for products. Sorta like how California tried to get different game rating labels for Video Games. It's just not practical to do to create something just for California and then something for the rest of the country.

[nGen]

I got to say, I'm really disappointed that Prop 37 failed. GMOs should be labelled so people with food sensitivities can make informed decisions about what they eat.

The problem there is that it wouldn't have been worth it to businesses to create different labels/names for products. Sorta like how California tried to get different game rating labels for Video Games. It's just not practical to do to create something just for California and then something for the rest of the country.

That's the point. If they do it in California, they do it in the rest of the country by default. Why do you think there is an expiration date on water? Water doesn't expire, but one state passed a law that said every food item must have an expiration date and here we are.

[Hamr]

And you're right, there isn't much information on the health effects of GMO's on the short term, but there isn't much research on adverse health effects on the long term.

That sounds more like an argument to actually do that research than to peddle hysteria and FUD to the masses. I have no doubt Prop 37 will come back in some form down the line, but if you have no concrete science to show for it, it will likely fail again.

"As for scaremongering, perhaps. I think people deserve the right to know what they are eating, whether it be GMO's, Pink Slime or meat from cloned animals. It's all about consumer rights."

Despite my preference for transparency in most cases, I am an evidence-oriented kind of guy. Going on about 'consumer rights' is an appeal to ideology, not to evidence. The 'right' of consumers to have access to completely useless information is not really observable or quantifiable. The adverse effect on society of having that information without being able to understand or contextualize it very much is, though.

[Radiant]

Well, that election went well. Of course, my state every county went Republican. I'm shocked, because even the deep South had counties that were blue, quite a few in some cases, but my state, nope... That really says too much about my state. Some things I already knew, but the deep South is always stereotyped to be the worst.'

Anyway, I was most excited that all of the same-sex propositions went favoring retaining or establishing same-sex marriage. I still think it's absolutely ridiculous that we're voting on this, but what can I do? I just hope we can avoid nonsense like Proposition 8.

Maine looks like a great state to move to, right now. Great climate, not so conservative, not so religious (relative to my state), and marriage equality! (I say this because I've singled out Maine as being somewhere I'd love to live for a few years or so now, and now it's an even better choice.)

[Hamr]

I just hope we can avoid nonsense like Proposition 8.

(._.)

The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice: Our courts already killed Prop 8, but it is going to be another eleven days before the US Supreme Co​​urt decides to defibrilate it or not.

-----

Anyway, in addition to science, Tuesday was a big win for math and statistics over gut feelings and fatuous beltway analysis -- and it turns out the Romney campaign was apparently not just projecting bravado in the last couple days of the election. Some leaks are already coming out in preliminary post-mortem stuff on how they really believed what they were saying, courtesy of buying the unskewer logic. Fascinating stuff.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-575 ... d-by-loss/

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012 ... romneyland

Also, in my winners/losers round-up earlier, I forgot to give special mention to The Architect. Easily the most impressive result of the entire election.