Immigration in the US

[The_Hangman]

So we've covered abortion, global warming, gay marriage, 2012 and even moon landings.
So, let's cover immigration.

So for you US folk, what are your views on immigration?

I'm biased. I'm part of the first generation of my family to be born here. If it weren't for the fact that my parents sneaked their way through deadly canyons and corrupt poilcemen into the US decades ago, I'd either be situating bales of hay onto a donkey for 10 hours a day in the middle of a third world Latin American country or I would not be alive at all. Obviously, I find it rather hard to be too negative towards even illegal immigrants; and, naturally, I think denying immigrants, legal or not, basic human institutions like healthcare or education is ludicrous.

So what do you guys think? Do you like it? Do you wish immigrants would "GTFO"? Do you even care?

[Zidane]

It's a simple fact that immigrants make more money for the US than they take away. No one in America is willing to do what they do for that little amount of money. Americans are just xenophobic, always have been. It's not even a matter of race since the Irish were hated on when they first got here.

[Mako]

I don't think its right that they come in and take the jobs that Americans need right now. I also don't like how a lot of them end up in jail and we have to pay to keep them there, 29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

I also don't like how they come here, usually from Mexico, and then they get special minority privileges. That just isn't right. And we have to pay for their kids to go to school.

I just don't like the idea at all.

[Zidane]

Their children don't go to school unless they are American citizens. It's easy as that. If you don't like the fact that there are too many Mexicans in American schools it's because most are in the southwest. As for prisons, I can agree with you there. It's just too difficult to become an American citizen, especially if you do the work that most illegal immigrants do.

What I don't understand is your concept of "minority privileges". Just like everything else you have to be an American citizen to receive any privilege in America. That includes scholarships and job opportunities. (I don't know of any outside those though.)

[The_Hangman]

"Minority priveleges?"
I have no idea what these are. Unless, of course, you mean things like food stamps, welfare, and free lunch tickets in which case it's better being called "Poverty Privileges". If I get scholarship money, it's most likely because I'm poor as hell (which I am).

At any rate, Zidane is right about the children in school. Most are American citizens. What usually happens is that immigrants will come here and have their children here. The parents may or may not be illegal aliens, but America has no right to deny its own citizens education.

And even if Americans have to pay for immigrants in jail or in school, this is more the fault of the US government than the immigrants.

I've seen the process to become a citizen. It's tedious, arduous, and costs about $800 here in Los Angeles.

[cortjezter]

even IF non-naturalised citizens are within our country's borders, they are here for a reason, the biggest is to probably try and have a better life than where they've come from. the pursuit of a happy, successful life of personal freedoms sounds like the american dream to me if i've ever heard it. america is more than just a place, it's an idea.

that said, this country and most of its people have moral foundations that include helping fellow human beings. not just americans, but humans of any kind. so what if people need food stamps or other welfare. plenty of americans also need this help, and frankly there is more than enough wealth in this country to help everyone. this is a generalisation, but as a natural born citizen i feel comfortable in the observation that there tend to be many more lazy americans waiting for a handout than people coming from other parts of the world who have a much stronger work ethic and drive for success. if these people need help to get started, they deserve a chance at the very least.

to shut anyone in need out is just selfish and greedy; two things that have contributed to the current economic state of this country. we were founded as a country of immigrants and will always be, period.

[Mako]

What I am saying is that the illegal immigrants that come here have their kids born here and they are American Citizens. I understand that they want a better life for their children, but then we have to pay for their kids to go to school when their parents came here illegally. And by "special privileges" I mean things like colleges offering them better scholarships and things like that because they are a minority.

[Zidane]

Colleges don't give scholarships strictly based on whether or not you are a minority. They only go by full credentials. You're thinking of special non-profit scholarships who often do work for poorer minorities like the NAACP.

[Mako]

Colleges don't give scholarships strictly based on whether or not you are a minority. They only go by full credentials. You're thinking of special non-profit scholarships who often do work for poorer minorities like the NAACP.

Same idea. They shouldn't be treated better just because of race.

[cortjezter]

Colleges don't give scholarships strictly based on whether or not you are a minority. They only go by full credentials. You're thinking of special non-profit scholarships who often do work for poorer minorities like the NAACP.

Same idea. They shouldn't be treated better just because of race.

that sounds more like a beef with affirmative action practices than immigration. i've written an entire thesis on aff. act. in the past, and won't get into it here.

i still maintain that anyone who needs help should have access to it, especially if they're already here in america. that stands for citizens and aliens alike.

[Zidane]

Colleges don't give scholarships strictly based on whether or not you are a minority. They only go by full credentials. You're thinking of special non-profit scholarships who often do work for poorer minorities like the NAACP.

Same idea. They shouldn't be treated better just because of race.

It's not the same though, because those scholarships only go to natural born citizens who need the money to go to college. Minorities yes, but they have full American citizens before they can get those scholarships. And scholarships can be for all kinds of things. There are scholarships for people who know Klingon and even scholarships strictly for white people. The NAACP is just the most outspoken about the issue and feel like there is no shame in giving a helping hand to minorities.

[Mako]

OK I get what you are saying. I won't go any more off topic though.

Overall I think immigration is a great thing, if they are coming here legally. Illegal immigrants are a huge problem like I previously said and we should do even more to try and stop it.

[SEGAsbest]

OK I get what you are saying. I won't go any more off topic though.

Overall I think immigration is a great thing, if they are coming here legally. Illegal immigrants are a huge problem like I previously said and we should do even more to try and stop it.

I agree. My grandfather legally immigrated to this country, I have no problems with immigrants who come here the correct way. What I have a problem with is illegal citizens who come here illegally. I also hate how our government is beginning to talk about handing them little benefits like Housebill 2939 (http://gov.oregonlive.com/bill/HB2939/) in Oregon that would allow people with undetermined citizenship to pay in state tuition.

My problem with this? I have many friends who are here legally who can barely afford their tuition, and they are talking about allocating millions to allow people without citizenship in-state tuition? I cannot even get in-state tuition in Colorado, or Idaho, and I was born in the US.

I am also tired of illegal citizens who do not bother trying to learn english, if you go somewhere TO LIVE, you learn that language. I wouldn't move to France and say 'all of you need to learn English to accommodate me!' I didn't get an invitation, I came of my own will. When I decided to do that I agreed to respect the culture already established there, because if I didn't respect it then I shouldn't have moved there in the first place.

[cortjezter]

I am also tired of illegal citizens who do not bother trying to learn english, if you go somewhere TO LIVE, you learn that language. I wouldn't move to France and say 'all of you need to learn English to accommodate me!' I didn't get an invitation, I came of my own will. When I decided to do that I agreed to respect the culture already established there, because if I didn't respect it then I shouldn't have moved there in the first place.

i know what you're getting at with this, but it's always been a concept that bothered me as being sort of...selfish, or something. why? because though most people here speak english, it's not our official language. what is? nothing, because there isnt' one. most countries do have them, but we don't. so why get on anyone's case about a non-issue?

trying to enforce and certainly discriminating against people for breaking what amounts to non-existing rules is simply not fair, and people who seriously get bothered by it to me just wind up coming off as...selfish, or something.

[karkashan]

I think if possible, they should immigrate through legal means, and should respect the new country's laws as much as possible.

Other than that, I say welcome and good luck.

[Ezekiel Rage]

just a word here from someone thats not a US citizen.

i read all your comments, and i must say that while views differ, you all have one in common: in europe, most of you would be considered so far right wing that you risk going to jail. as a matter of fact, europeans are so far left winged, most americans despise us for being socialists and communists, althos we really are not :p

anyway, i would say that the thing with imigration lies, liek most things, in the intention.
WHY exactly do you come into this country?
in austria, we have a really big problem with muslims and people from africa, whic are drug dealers 90% of the time. that does not make all of them bad people obviously, but it raises the question, WHY do we need them and WHY do we even let them into our country.
we have a policy that if you are fleeing from war or something, the FIRST secure country has to take you in.
austria is surounded by secure countries only. in fact, if you want to imigrate to austria from africa, you have to go through at least two save countries to land here. most of them come from spain to france to italy to austria. why dont they stay in spain, france or italy? because their sole purpouse is it to come here, live from our money and sell their drugs to our kids.
and that is something i cant accept. if you need help, if you are willing to work here, live by our rules, then you are welcome, because frankly, in austria we need people like that. and ill be damned if ill say one bad word about those honest people. but for everyone else, i think we should put them into jail and throw them out whenw e have the chance.

also, austrian jail is like a 3star hotel in hungaray or poland-.-

[SEGAsbest]

I am also tired of illegal citizens who do not bother trying to learn english, if you go somewhere TO LIVE, you learn that language. I wouldn't move to France and say 'all of you need to learn English to accommodate me!' I didn't get an invitation, I came of my own will. When I decided to do that I agreed to respect the culture already established there, because if I didn't respect it then I shouldn't have moved there in the first place.

i know what you're getting at with this, but it's always been a concept that bothered me as being sort of...selfish, or something. why? because though most people here speak english, it's not our official language. what is? nothing, because there isnt' one. most countries do have them, but we don't. so why get on anyone's case about a non-issue?

trying to enforce and certainly discriminating against people for breaking what amounts to non-existing rules is simply not fair, and people who seriously get bothered by it to me just wind up coming off as...selfish, or something.

Actually you are incorrect, the rule does exist and english is the official language of 30 states in the US. Regardless of it being a "rule" it doesn't need to be for them to bother learning it, it is the de facto language and I believe it is their responsibility to learn it.

I stand by my original point: when you move to a country you respect it's rules, laws, and culture and conform to it. You do not force your values down it's throat and try and make it conform to you, that philosophy of self-entitlement is where the term 'ugly american' comes from and it is the exact same thing.

And selfish? You think that it is selfish that when the majority of people speak something and the minority doesn't bother learning it, that it's selfish of the majority? That is not the way the word selfish works, if the group wants to play scrabble and I'd rather play monopoly and as such refuse to play scrabble out of spite, that is selfish, I am only thinking of myself and what I want at that point.

[cortjezter]

but immigration isn't really a state issue; so even if 30 states do have such laws or rules, it doesn't apply to federal immigration standards, which is what we're talking about here.

this is a topic about the US, not individual states; a country is more than just the sum of its parts...especially this one, being a composite of....immigrants since day one.

[SEGAsbest]

but immigration isn't really a state issue; so even if 30 states do have such laws or rules, it doesn't apply to federal immigration standards, which is what we're talking about here.

this is a topic about the US, not individual states; a country is more than just the sum of its parts...especially this one, being a composite of....immigrants since day one.

Maybe I read it incorrectly but the OP made no specific mention of whether this was at a federal, state, or just on a moral level. Correct me if I am wrong. Regardless of that, part of a culture is it's language and English is the primary language in the US and should be spoken.

Sweden has no language either, so do you think it's still appropriate to willingly move there and refuse to learn Swedish? First, do you think that is respectful to their culture and customs? Second, do you think it'd be fair of you to move there and expect their government, businesses, and citizens to accommodate to you and learn your language?

The reality is it's laziness, people who are too lazy to educate themselves. The largest ethnic group in the US is German, and at some point those people learned English (and most did it before computers, before the abundance of public libraries, and with an inferior public education system) and adjusted to this society and it's culture, if they can do it so can all other immigrants.

[piebot56]

I'm kind of iin the middle about this one.

These immigrants need homes and jobs and mony just as much as we do. That's not saying that it is right for them to come to the US and try to take our jobs. Not saying that is a bad thing either. It kind of depends on wether the immigrants are going to cause trouble for the group of people they are coming into.

[SEGAsbest]

I'm kind of iin the middle about this one.

These immigrants need homes and jobs and mony just as much as we do. That's not saying that it is right for them to come to the US and try to take our jobs. Not saying that is a bad thing either. It kind of depends on wether the immigrants are going to cause trouble for the group of people they are coming into.

Right, but if they are coming for those reasons they are just making the situation in both countries worse. The reality is the only way their home country can change is if it's citizens force it too, fleeing the situation will not make their homeland any better than it already is, somebody has to reform it.

If the attitude amongst everybody in a 3rd world nation is they must leave to a developed country for a decent life we are gonna have some serious overpopulation issues, much like we are already beginning to face. Basically immigration is fine, but it must be done in moderation.

[The_Hangman]

The largest ethnic group in the US is German

wat
*Remembers his mechanic is German*

Anyway, I agree that one should learn the country's language if they're going to live there. But, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that most people who immigrate know that already - unless they're old or something. I don't know about you guys, but every single immigrant I see has at least a basic understanding of Enlish here in LA. I don't see it as something to complain about, especially if they get along fine.

As for the whole federal-state-moral level thing: On the moral level, there's nothing really "wrong" with immigration. They're crossing borders here, not murdering babies. It's "wrongness" stands in the effects it has on the country immigrants are moving to (i.e. overpopulation, free money/subsidies, higher crime rates, etc.) After all, there's a reason why no one cares if you immigrate to, say, Guatemala.

Finally, there's that problem of developing the 3rd world countries. I don't know. On the one hand, I completely empathize with immigrants who want a nice country to move to as opposed to, say, a country torn apart by a corrupt government and crazed gunmen; but on the other hand, who's going to fix the old country? The corrupt government? The people still there? I don't know.

[Golbez]

I don't think anyone has a problem with legal immigrants, except the most close-minded of people. I generally think illegal immigrants should GTFO, but I understand why people come to the U.S. illegally. As far as speaking English goes, it's the accepted standard language of the U.S., and you should make every attempt to learn it. I don't visit other countries and expect everyone to speak English (though many people do). I've learned two other languages (Spanish and Swedish). Don't see why immigrants to the U.S. shouldn't learn English. You have to admit, there are some people who just flat-out don't try, because they know that people will cater to them and speak their language.

I don't know about you guys, but every single immigrant I see has at least a basic understanding of Enlish here in LA. I don't see it as something to complain about, especially if they get alon

In Texas, at least, it's extremely common to see people who don't seem to speak more than one or two words of English. Of course, since half the population speaks Spanish, they have no incentive to learn English. That pisses me off, I have to say.

[Zidane]

just a word here from someone thats not a US citizen.

i read all your comments, and i must say that while views differ, you all have one in common: in europe, most of you would be considered so far right wing that you risk going to jail. as a matter of fact, europeans are so far left winged, most americans despise us for being socialists and communists, althos we really are not :p

anyway, i would say that the thing with imigration lies, liek most things, in the intention.
WHY exactly do you come into this country?
in austria, we have a really big problem with muslims and people from africa, whic are drug dealers 90% of the time. that does not make all of them bad people obviously, but it raises the question, WHY do we need them and WHY do we even let them into our country.
we have a policy that if you are fleeing from war or something, the FIRST secure country has to take you in.
austria is surounded by secure countries only. in fact, if you want to imigrate to austria from africa, you have to go through at least two save countries to land here. most of them come from spain to france to italy to austria. why dont they stay in spain, france or italy? because their sole purpouse is it to come here, live from our money and sell their drugs to our kids.
and that is something i cant accept. if you need help, if you are willing to work here, live by our rules, then you are welcome, because frankly, in austria we need people like that. and ill be damned if ill say one bad word about those honest people. but for everyone else, i think we should put them into jail and throw them out whenw e have the chance.

also, austrian jail is like a 3star hotel in hungaray or poland-.-

Sounds like something a commie would say...

[The_Hangman]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately. As much I sympathize with illegal immigrants, I really only see two possibilities of fixing this problem:

1) Amnesty is a terrible idea. In this regard, you dole out Eisenhower-style round-ups and simply kick most/all illegal immigrants out.

2) You create a path to citizenship only for illegals who wish to assimilate into high American cultural standards and for those who genuinely work hard, while simultaneously kicking out anyone who corrupts society. This "takes out the waste" while promoting the elites of the immigrants.

It would also be a good idea to raise the quota for legal immigration and to promote only the "best and brightest" and such from other countries. If illegal immigrants - most of which are Hispanic (let's not kid ourselves here) - were all intelligent, hard-working, and easily assimilated into high American culture, this probably wouldn't be such a big deal. The problem is that most illegals are working class, and the working class almost always assimilates directly into a low-class culture - in this instance, "Ghetto" American culture. Illegal immigrants then have children who assimilate into this low culture and the result is crime, poverty, etc. America must demand illegal immigrants to adhere to the standards of its society, otherwise it's GTFO.