This Here "Mosque" At "Ground Zero"

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This Here "Mosque" At "Ground Zero"

Postby Clowns8me » 20 Aug 2010 16:09

I'm surprised this thread has yet to be made.
Now I normally don't come to Debate forums, cause i prefer not to resent people off their political views, which would be inevitable if i read through most of these threads. However, this particular topic interests me quite a bit. In case you don't know to what i am referring, http://www.google.com/search?q=mosque+g ... =firefox-a

I personally have no issue with a mosque being built on/near ground zero, still, i do acknowledge the irony (and remain surprised that it was even suggested).
your thoughts, gents?
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby LuigiGBA » 21 Aug 2010 09:45

Fist off, it isn't a mosque, it has a one floor at the top that is considered a worship place, so you could say that it contains a mosque within it, but the rest of the facilities (basketball cort, culinary school, etc.) would be completely open to the non-Islamic public. Second off, none of that matters, nobody should have control over private business transactions, the building is a rundown Burlington Coat Factory two blocks away from Ground Zero which might as well be 20 effing miles in New York and what currently constitutes an Islamic cultural center is already being run in a nearby basement. The whole mediastorm is manipulative and racist and unhelpful for those still going through grief. And the truth is, nobody (aside from the victims and their families, of course) suffered more than the almost entirely peaceful Muslim population of America because of 9/11. They were ostracized and threatened and attacked by a country that espouses freedom of religion as one of its core tenants. Anyway, Keith Olberman did a good summary of all this, so I'll post that as well. I'm also white as hell if that matters to anyone.

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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby thresholdXCI » 22 Aug 2010 09:10

Of course I appreciate how the entire matter might be incredibly sensitive for some - 9/11 was shocking enough to see on TV halfway across the world, never mind people actually living/ working in the area.

That said, I really don't see any reason for a mosque/ worship place - whatever this is - to be stopped. I mean, I don't think it's in any way fair to attach a negative stigma to Muslim people in general just because a tiny minority of murderous f***tards decided to act in the name of their religion.
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby Devil_Rising » 22 Aug 2010 16:19

I'm not a fan of monotheistic (ie We're right, everyone else is wrong, and going to HELLLLLLLLL) religions, at all. I consider myself to be spiritual, highly so. But absolutely not religious. I think it's good to have beliefs. Just not to have fanatical dogma. I think it's better to put people and this life we're living now first, not some imagined hereafter.

Having said that, this is America. It's a f***ed up place, but there are at least a FEW things about it, that are supposed to be good, and something to believe in. One of those things, is the idea that people are supposed to have religious FREEDOM in the United States, without fear from persecution. Allegedly, that's one of the major reasons that the "founding fathers" and other settlers came here in the first place. Not a great deal for the Native Americans, but that's another matter entirely. The point is, that if someone wants to build a building with a mosque IN it, so what? If people were making this big of a heinous issue because someone was building a Jewish Cultural Center, open to the public, with a synagogue on the upper floor, most people would be all over how RACIST and vile that was, to protest such a thing. Muslims live in this country. They are American citizens. Many have lived here their entire lives, even for several generations. Most, I would assume, are "good Americans" (whatever that means), and more importantly, good people. Just because I don't agree with Islam, doesn't mean these people shouldn't have the same rights, and be given the same simple, decent human respect as you or I. I don't agree with Christianity or Judaism either, and this country is full to the brim with Christians. That doesn't mean I don't think they too, should be treated fairly, and equally.

That's supposed to be the whole point of America. The "Land of the Free", where everyone IS supposed to be treated fairly and equally. That obviously isn't quite how things work, but regardless, it is still an ideal that we strive for. Or should be striving for. It's an ideal worth upholding. Muslims didn't attack the World Trade Center. Terrorist, fanatical fundamentalist freaks did. That's like saying that, as Native Americans, you don't want a Christian church ANYWHERE on American soil, because the Catholic Church, and European Christians in general, wiped out millions and millions of your people, and pretty much destroyed most of your culture, and stole land your people had lived on for thousands of years. See the connection? That's an even MORE extreme example, with an even MORE legit cause.

People are blowing this s**t way out of proportion, plain and simple. They want to call "Ground Zero" sacred ground, yet there's no problem with the fact that there are several churches right in the vicinity. Nor is there any apparent problem with the fact that there are plans, if the damned thing ever gets built, for the NEW building, to have an underground shopping mall. Yeah, no better way to honor the dead, than by buying discount shoes, and going to Sabarros and Orange Julius. Please.

All this is, to be completely frank, is an attempt by the Tea baggers, and the crazy elements of "the right", to try and gain votes in November. That's it. For all the "oh, this is a sacred issue, look what they did to US" crap. It really comes down to "vote for me, I hate Muslims too" rhetoric. I'm part Lebanese myself, and while that isn't even Arab, and technically Lebanon is a Mediterranean country, it's still connected in many people's minds, to the Middle East, and as such, I have felt some of the sting over these many years, of the open hate, nastiness, and racism towards middle eastern folks in general, after 9/11. Which is sad, because I never really internalized the fact that I WAS part "middle eastern", until people started running around, openly saying s**t about "sand n******", etc. I had never thought too much about it before...growing up, I was just "American". But hearing those kinds of comments, really pissed me off, because in a way, they were talking about me. Still pisses me off.

So let people build a "Mosque" a few blocks away, and not even within eyesight of "Ground Zero". Who cares? The Fox News, Glenn Beck type hysterics that are building up in this country, quite frankly, are rather scary. This isn't a "Christian Nation", it was never meant to be, it was meant to be a nation for EVERYBODY. That's the idea. And if it ever STOPS being a nation for everybody, then the very idea of America, as it was founded, is pointless.
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby SEGAsbest » 26 Aug 2010 03:35

Devil_Rising wrote:STUFF HE SAID UP THERE



We may disagree when it comes to gaming Devil Rising, but I 100% agree with your fantastic rant/post. Kudos.
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby Striker Jacen » 26 Aug 2010 18:32

That was a big post.

America -->> founded on religious freedom. It's a constitutional right. So anybody can build a place of worship where they have zoning privileges. And there's nothing that should stop this center from being built. People need to realize the message they are sending to their neighbors, their fellow citizens, and to the rest of the world. If they feel America is better than other places, then show that by example.

I think the center will probably be moved somewhere else, for the whole "crisis" to die down and ebb away. I don't like that solution, and I am saddened by the reality of this whole situation and what this tells us about the culture of fear-mongering officials and media and the intolerance of one section of society. It really really makes me sad.

Long live freedom to choose where, how, what, and when to worship and pray. And may respective gods have mercy on us.

P.S. Thanks to everybody here who has posted on this issue and described the situation with clarity and with passion, but without any of the ignorance and crazed behavior of some people on the 'tube. Makes me smile to know that people here are mature and I didn't have to worry about your mental health. you guys rock my body (till the break of dawn)
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby Striker Jacen » 26 Aug 2010 18:45

I love the quote from Olbermann quote.
"This is America, Dammit!"
hahahaha

Good piece. Fair and educational.
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby Animidge » 13 Sep 2010 17:49

I think that they are over reacting about it.
I mean, I know tons of people died on 9/11 but, this is just a mosque like what, two blocks away from Ground Zero? I think they should just accept things the way they are.
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby Sigtaro » 14 Sep 2010 00:47

I'm against it. I'm for a secular America. Freedom of religion is fine just keep it to yourself. To show some equality no more building of religious buildings in the future.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charte ... cript.html
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...."

I don't feel like getting out there and striking against it, but I support some groups. If it stands in the future then oh well, but if something suspicious is going on in that mosque they're going to have to answer to the law.
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby Devil_Rising » 14 Sep 2010 02:21

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of a "Secular America".

However, you and I both know that's not happening any time soon. What this comes down to is religious freedom and equal rights. This isn't a domed mosque being built. It's an old Burlington Coat Factory building being turned into a multicultural center, that happens to have a mosque in it, along with a gym, food cort, etc.

What I'm against, are the people against it who are ONLY against it because they hate Muslims/Arabs/Anyone who looks remotely Middle Eastern. It has become okay to a lot of people in this country, to be openly racist towards Middle Eastern people, whether they're Muslim or not, whether they've lived in this country, sometimes even for generations, or not. And that pisses me off. I myself am a quarter Lebanese. Not Arab, Phoenician/Meditaranian, but still considered "Middle Eastern". So I certainly sympathize.

I don't like Islam as a religion, but I don't like Christianity either. I simply don't like the "One God, One Truth" mentality, where you're right, everyone else is wrong, and also going to hell. That's BS. But I also believe, as you say, people should have the right to believe what they want. And that includes having religious buildings. There are already, literally, millions of Christian churches of any number of denominations all over this country. For people to be frothing at the mouth, protesting mosque's being built anywhere, threatening to burn Qu'rans (even though our troops are fighting and dying to help Muslims overseas), to me, stinks of not just ignorance, but also hateful racism. Period.

It's one thing to hate the terrorists. But not ALL Middle Eastern folks are terrorists. In fact, very very few are. Most are normal folks, who just happen to live in a different culture. And a decent number, live in America, and have been living and working in this country, for generations. Like Chris Rock said, "Arabs are the new Blacks" in America. It's open season on being openly racist, vile, and hateful towards them. And it goes relatively unpunished, or even admonished in many cases. That is disgusting. Our Black (and Christian) President, gets called a "Muslim", as if it's a nasty insult. That s**t needs to stop. But worse, how does it make us look, when we're spending trillions of dollars on wars in the Middle East, supposedly fighting to save and win freedoms for millions of Muslims in those countries, when here at home, we burn Qu'rans, and treat American Muslims like dirt? It's shameful, and we should be embarrassed of such disgraceful action.

People want to try and say "Well, Saudi Arabia isn't tolerant of CHRISTIANS, why should WE be of Muslims?" Last I checked, we WEREN'T Saudi Arabia, and last I checked, we were supposed to be BETTER than a fascist, monarchical dictatorship. And last I checked, we were supposed to be a nation free for ALL, not just white conservative Christians. This isn't THEIR country, it's EVERY American's.
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby Mako » 14 Sep 2010 11:10

If it was on the exact site as the former world trade centers I would say no way, but if it is 2 blocks away who cares? It isn't that big of a deal...
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby Jirachi » 14 Sep 2010 11:22

I say let them do it it's not really hurting anyone therefore there's no reason to even try to stop them. by trying to stop them were making ourselves be hipocrits one of the reasons america was founded was to stop religious opression,so let it be.
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby Darth Vader » 14 Sep 2010 15:28

Wasn't there a muslim worship center near ground zero to begin with?

Like, on the sixteenth or seventeenth floor of one of the towers?
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby Devil_Rising » 14 Sep 2010 15:29

Not to mention the fact that it was just recently reported in the news that the building, will in fact, have separate prayer facilities for Muslims, Christians, Jews, AND even other faiths. I.E "It's not a Mosque". Either they're being SUPER sneaky, and it's all one huge conspiracy (as Glenn Beck suggests), OR, people are listening to some crazy douchebag like Beck, and blowing absolutely nothing out of proportion, per usual.
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby thresholdXCI » 17 Sep 2010 15:11

Was it this that brought on that whole 'Burn a Koran Day'? That was a crazy story.
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby Clowns8me » 17 Sep 2010 21:19

Sigtaro wrote:I'm against it. I'm for a secular America. Freedom of religion is fine just keep it to yourself. To show some equality no more building of religious buildings in the future
you realize you just said "no more churches, mosques, or synagogues in america, guys."
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Re: This Here Mosque At Ground Zero

Postby Sigtaro » 18 Sep 2010 11:43

Clowns8me wrote:
Sigtaro wrote:I'm against it. I'm for a secular America. Freedom of religion is fine just keep it to yourself. To show some equality no more building of religious buildings in the future
you realize you just said "no more churches, mosques, or synagogues in america, guys."


Uh yeah. The point was that I'm not showing I'm against Islam only, but with the problem that Europeans seem to have with Islam I have more against Islam now than I do Christianity. At least Christianity was part of the American culture and history and secularism is getting better. I have to admit if it was a church then I wouldn't be that much against it.
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Re: This Here "Mosque" At "Ground Zero"

Postby cortjezter » 18 Sep 2010 12:26

updated the thread title, since it's not really a mosque, and it's not at ground zero.
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