The moral implications of modding?

Itching to pick a fight over some controversial topic? You can do it here, but beware... moderating is strictly enforced to maintain order!

The moral implications of modding?

Postby tendoboy1984 » 28 Dec 2010 16:44

Why is modding/hacking videogames and consoles considered bad? People mod their computers and cars, and that's perfectly fine. You don't see Ford or HP trying to stop people from modding their cars or PCs, so why are game companies so freaked out?

As long as you don't pirate games, it's fine, right?

Companies like Valve encourage modding, as long as it's on a PC.
Modding PC games/hardware = good
Modding console games/hardware = bad

Why is this? Why are console manufacturers against it, and PC game developers ok with it?

I don't mod or hack. I'm asking this as a genuinely interested outsider.
I don't want an "all-in-one" multimedia system. I want a GAME console. ~ (me after the Xbox One reveal)
tendoboy1984
Boo
Boo
 
Posts: 556
Joined: 16 Jun 2009 17:55
Location: Arizona
Wii: 5519-8046-0668-6068
PSN: PS_Man1984
3DS: 4597-0176-3500

Re: The moral implications of modding?

Postby Mako » 28 Dec 2010 20:28

Probably because they lose millions of dollars by people getting games illegally instead of buying an actual copy. I'm not saying everyone who mods their systems does so, but I'm sure a lot do...
User avatar
Mako
Site Mod
Site Mod
 
Posts: 1773
Joined: 09 Feb 2008 14:32
Location: Michigan
Wii: 0725-3780-1331-9030
PSN: yugoboy91
3DS: 4167-4543-6089
NN ID: Mako91

Re: The moral implications of modding?

Postby tendoboy1984 » 28 Dec 2010 21:46

I'm not talking about pirating games. I'm talking about hacking/modding games and systems for homebrew purposes [look at the Smash Bros. Brawl hacks]. No one cares if you mod a car or PC hardware [Valve even encourages PC game modding], so why is it bad to mod console hardware/games?

NOT TALKING ABOUT PIRACY!
I don't want an "all-in-one" multimedia system. I want a GAME console. ~ (me after the Xbox One reveal)
tendoboy1984
Boo
Boo
 
Posts: 556
Joined: 16 Jun 2009 17:55
Location: Arizona
Wii: 5519-8046-0668-6068
PSN: PS_Man1984
3DS: 4597-0176-3500

Re: The moral implications of modding?

Postby MAGNUS-8M » 28 Dec 2010 22:51

The reason is almost always because of piracy. There is no pirating involved when you mod a car, mod a computer, or mod a PC game that is easily modifiable. You CAN get in trouble for modding a car beyond what your insurance or state will allow(thus making it NOT 'street legal') IF they bother to care about it(seriously, there are already too many people with heavily-tinted windows who are definately not getting fined enough). And I'm sure there are still plenty of modifications to games that even encourage modding that would be considered illegal according to the End User License Agreements and whatnot.

Modding a console game, especially one as tight-lipped as Nintendo's, more or less implies breaking their security for the game. I'm sure they could care less if you're swapping out character models/music/etc as long as you're not causing them to be responsible for breaking copyright laws and whatnot(and I doubt they CAN be held responsible for what you do, so I don't think they're too worried about that). But it's most likely due to the fact that breaking their code for being able to do THAT implies that you could break their code for use in pirating, so they're especially sensitive about that. Think of it as being similar to the makers of HD-DVD, and how upset they were when their encryption key got leaked.

Seriously, how many people mod their gaming systems to do something that is 'legal'? There may be a few legal homebrew games out there, but hardly anything that's worth it SO much that they'd bother to make it work on a console system instead of just making it a freeware PC game. Maybe a few people could benefit from learning how to program for a game system, because they're the ones actually doing the programming and need it to check and test their game and all that, but the majority of the users are just using homebrew as an excuse to pirate games for their system.

Just 'modding' in general is hardly anything for console makers to be worried about. It's all about the end-result. I modded my Dreamcast VMU so it would use 4 AA batteries instead of the two watch-batteries that died almost instantly - nothing wrong with that in the least. All it did was just gave me a little more time to train up a Chao for the short time I cared about them. Modding a car: mostly about style, sometimes performance. PC, performance. PC games? Skins and custom-game scenarios, extending the life of the game. Game consoles? It's almost always for pirating. You can always say "as long as you don't pirate games, it's fine", sure, but that's rarely the case. Nintendo especially wants to protect their property, and they at least seem pretty sensitive about anything related to breaking their code, probably moreso after the whole Twilight Princess save-hack fiasco.
User avatar
MAGNUS-8M
Boo
Boo
 
Posts: 522
Joined: 23 Oct 2009 13:02
3DS: 5241-2075-2337

Re: The moral implications of modding?

Postby Jirachi » 28 Dec 2010 23:47

I don't understand it either i mean i've literally been called many insults b/c i like using action replay (mostly for things like money in rpgs) action replay really doesn't hurt anyone more then things like exploiting glitches or w/e (like the wave dash glitch in melee or dacus in brawl, if you don't know it but your opponent does your screwed) but basically buying an ar is considered bad because they have to buy one to the same stuff (but really if buying an ar is cheating wouldn't buying multiple copies be too?)
My favorite zelda game is Twilight Princess and Jirachi is my favorite pokemon <3 skype:SSBBKING

Image
User avatar
Jirachi
Metool
Metool
 
Posts: 389
Joined: 26 Sep 2009 04:59
Location: Iowa
Wii: 5376-4745-6865-7604
XBL: N and 360 fan
PSN: TCDFTW
3DS: 1848-1701-2271
NN ID: Jirachifan

Re: The moral implications of modding?

Postby tendoboy1984 » 29 Dec 2010 00:40

MAGNUS-8M wrote:The reason is almost always because of piracy. There is no pirating involved when you mod a car, mod a computer, or mod a PC game that is easily modifiable. You CAN get in trouble for modding a car beyond what your insurance or state will allow(thus making it NOT 'street legal') IF they bother to care about it(seriously, there are already too many people with heavily-tinted windows who are definately not getting fined enough). And I'm sure there are still plenty of modifications to games that even encourage modding that would be considered illegal according to the End User License Agreements and whatnot.

Modding a console game, especially one as tight-lipped as Nintendo's, more or less implies breaking their security for the game. I'm sure they could care less if you're swapping out character models/music/etc as long as you're not causing them to be responsible for breaking copyright laws and whatnot(and I doubt they CAN be held responsible for what you do, so I don't think they're too worried about that). But it's most likely due to the fact that breaking their code for being able to do THAT implies that you could break their code for use in pirating, so they're especially sensitive about that. Think of it as being similar to the makers of HD-DVD, and how upset they were when their encryption key got leaked.

Seriously, how many people mod their gaming systems to do something that is 'legal'? There may be a few legal homebrew games out there, but hardly anything that's worth it SO much that they'd bother to make it work on a console system instead of just making it a freeware PC game. Maybe a few people could benefit from learning how to program for a game system, because they're the ones actually doing the programming and need it to check and test their game and all that, but the majority of the users are just using homebrew as an excuse to pirate games for their system.

Just 'modding' in general is hardly anything for console makers to be worried about. It's all about the end-result. I modded my Dreamcast VMU so it would use 4 AA batteries instead of the two watch-batteries that died almost instantly - nothing wrong with that in the least. All it did was just gave me a little more time to train up a Chao for the short time I cared about them. Modding a car: mostly about style, sometimes performance. PC, performance. PC games? Skins and custom-game scenarios, extending the life of the game. Game consoles? It's almost always for pirating. You can always say "as long as you don't pirate games, it's fine", sure, but that's rarely the case. Nintendo especially wants to protect their property, and they at least seem pretty sensitive about anything related to breaking their code, probably moreso after the whole Twilight Princess save-hack fiasco.



THANK YOU! Someone who gave me a thorough, well thought-out answer.

If modding console games infringes on a company's IP rights, then what about people who mod PC games? Like I said above, Valve allows people to mod their games [especially Half-Life].
I don't want an "all-in-one" multimedia system. I want a GAME console. ~ (me after the Xbox One reveal)
tendoboy1984
Boo
Boo
 
Posts: 556
Joined: 16 Jun 2009 17:55
Location: Arizona
Wii: 5519-8046-0668-6068
PSN: PS_Man1984
3DS: 4597-0176-3500

Re: The moral implications of modding?

Postby MAGNUS-8M » 29 Dec 2010 11:14

tendoboy1984 wrote:
THANK YOU! Someone who gave me a thorough, well thought-out answer.

If modding console games infringes on a company's IP rights, then what about people who mod PC games? Like I said above, Valve allows people to mod their games [especially Half-Life].



Most of this comes down to intended and unintended 'interchangeability'(and that's probably a much better way of explaining it than my larger previous post really). All of the examples you gave, cars, PCs, PC Software mods, they're all a matter of changing things out for something else. Cars are made so that you can replace parts that break down, but it's also fine to replace those parts with something 'better' as long as it's still street legal. PCs are made so you can replace parts, but you can also replace those with something better.

PC games, like most PC software, is made up of many resources placed in different folders, and sometimes those resources can be either manually or by use of a program automatically switched out with other resources. I did it all the time when I was younger - I'd take the Chip's Challenge's folder, rename the real MIDI and WAV files, and replace them with video-game MIDI and WAV SFX files. If I was a little more savvy, I probably could have hacked my way into the EXE(because I think the graphics were not a separate resource, but either way), found the tilsets for the graphics, and modded those too. And while BACK THEN maybe they could have had a problem with it, the PC side of things has pretty much acknowledged that their resources are just sitting there in a folder, and some of them can be easily swapped out with different resources, so they just kind of go with it now, I suppose. They just make disclaimers telling you they're not responsible if you add in copyrighted characters/scenarios/etc, and I'm sure they have a right to delete such things server-side if it gets added there.

Console games, permanently stamped discs(or maybe even a WiiWare/VC game good enough to warrant being modded for whatever reason) being played in a controlled environment...those require a little more security-breaking to get into. Some were mistakenly left open, like the Twilight Princess save-file hack, and from what I hear, Brawl's code in combination with the SD card capabilities(because I hear you can use those mods without a modchip and even without the homebrew channel). But even those involve taking advantage of copyrighted code to make it do things they didn't intend it to do, and as I mentioned before, it usually implies or leads up into pirating. Maybe if the Brawl-community was a little quieter about it, and weren't attached to so many other Wii/DS-hacking-projects, maybe they could have gotten away with it just fine. Most everything else for modding on Wii requires either the Homebrew Channel, a modchip, or emulating the Wii on a higher-end PC.

In short(whoops, it wasn't), it more or less boils down to the fact that Nintendo is very sensitive to pirating, and any attempt made against its game code is probably offensive to them. They've been in the business almost up to when it first started, and they've had to combat piracy almost the whole way. For other console companies(if they care as much), I'd say it comes down to the fact they've created a controlled environment in which they can hope to prevent code from being compromised, and they don't like it when people turn around and do that anyway. That's the best guess I can make, is that they made it so it can't be compromised in order to prevent piracy, and here people are compromising that code to 'only make modifications', but as the programmers, they probably see that their methods are only a few steps away from compromising game code anyway.

At the very least, as much as Nintendo prides itself on basically being an artist in terms of making games, they're probably also a bit upset that people would be bored or tired of their designs enough to go to the trouble of replacing those things; image-artists don't like their art being modified by someone else and then being reposted as their own image, Nintendo probably doesn't like their games being modified and then being reposted as a better design. That's all just a guess, of course, but as far as I know, there aren't any clear-cut reasonings on why Nintendo-especially dislikes simple modifications like what the Brawl community is doing, so that's as close to a guess as I can get anyway.
User avatar
MAGNUS-8M
Boo
Boo
 
Posts: 522
Joined: 23 Oct 2009 13:02
3DS: 5241-2075-2337

Re: The moral implications of modding?

Postby tendoboy1984 » 29 Dec 2010 11:25

So it all boils down to piracy, even if it's unintentional...

Sony is also very strict regarding custom firmware in the PSP and PS3, since a large majority of people who hack PSPs do it for piracy.
I don't want an "all-in-one" multimedia system. I want a GAME console. ~ (me after the Xbox One reveal)
tendoboy1984
Boo
Boo
 
Posts: 556
Joined: 16 Jun 2009 17:55
Location: Arizona
Wii: 5519-8046-0668-6068
PSN: PS_Man1984
3DS: 4597-0176-3500


Return to Debate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users