Immigration in the US

[Wiggymaster]

I think that there should be a middle ground.

First of all, I think it should be made much easier to immigrate to this country provided you follow a few basic rules:

1. Learn fluent English. I speak Spanish. You should speak English.
2. Familiarize yourself with the history of the country. This usually isn't a problem - in fact, most immigrants tend to know more about our country and its history than Oklahoma high schoolers (which is shameful, Oklahoma).
3. Let go of the tribal mentality. This happens on both sides. When you come to America, you stop being Mexican, Puerto Rican, Canadian, British, Australian, Dutch, Chinese, and you start being American. Your nationality is not your ethnicity. Moreover, Americans need to realize that just because someone was born in Mexico doesn't mean they're not American once they start living here. The entire promise of America is that nobody is more American than anyone else - all are created equal.

The story of this situation is nothing new. It's just that it's broadcast over the internet rather than confined to the shadows of the New York subways and rail-yards. As a descendant of Polish immigrants, I understand what's involved in naturalizing to a country. My great grandparents didn't come here with the intent of remaking the land, nor with the intent of spending their lives secluded among their own ethnicity. They learned English, and integrated themselves with the collective culture, yet managed to retain aspects of their own culture.

That said, it was much easier to immigrate to this country then than it is now. This needs to change. The process for immigrating legally has become so costly and exclusive that it's all but impossible for anyone other than the most privileged citizens of other nations. My great grandparents would've NEVER made it over here in today's climate. What does that say for us, who for the most part, are descendants of European immigrants? The Irish, the Scots, the Germans, the French, and even the English who came here AFTER the revolution?

[SEGAsbest]

I can't really believe this is as big of an issue as it is. The fact is The only people native to this country are Native Americans. Nearly all of us had ancestors who came to this country so future generations could have a better life. Immigration is what makes this country great. We should be glad that we live in a country that others want to come to to better their lives. As for illeagal Immigrants I feel bad that they live in such horrible conditions that they feel the need to have to go to great lengths to sneak in the country. I have never known a single person in my whole life who's job has been taken by an illeagal immigrant. It's just a talking point for politicians to get people all riled up. I think they should go through the appropriate process to come here, but some are in such desperate situations that they simply can't. If you want to be angry at someone taking American jobs blame the companies that send the jobs to other countries. Or better yet be angry at the top 1% of people who run these companies and are sending the jobs to other countries and paying their workers as little as they possibly can because several million dollars a year is just not enough for them. I say let the non violent immigrants out of jail and throw these a-holes in there.

It would assist your argument if you used paragraphs, and proofread. Just a tip, but none the less I will overlook it and respond to your points.

It is largely irrelevant as to how Americans arrived here, or how we got here as times have changed and America has gone from a sparsely populated colony to the third most populous nation in the world. The argument that what happened 100 and 200 years ago should still be going on in the modern era simply doesn't hold water and is entirely unrealistic. You have a valid point about the companies that send jobs overseas, and in fact it is largely the fault of corporations that we even have an illegal immigration problem. They are the ones who illegally employ these individuals and create a venue through which they may provide for themselves, the reality is that if they were not given jobs very few would stay.

Still, America's immigration system is already one of the easiest (if not the easiest) in the developed world. I can see few excuses why an individual shouldn't have to go through it to come here, and if they are truly under threat they can request refugee status or asylum.

Finally "non-violent immigrants" are generally sent back from whence they came, and jailed only temporarily.

[Sailing_Day]

The US immigration system, easy? Yeah, if you're a world famous artist or something.

Immigrating into the US legally is a huge time and money drain for people wishing to immigrate, and can be pretty much impossibe if you A) don't have family in the US or have an US citizen willing to marry you or B) aren't well educated and/or have an employer willing to help you transfer. If you do have either of those, fees can add up to thousands of US dollars and waiting times can add up to years. Do you think the typical poor Mexican dude looking to build a family somewhere safe and stable can afford either?

As far as learning English goes, I was pretty lucky to be able to learn it at a young age, but I'd guess most people don't have that privilege. It breaks my heart to see my mother struggle with the language to get by. Once you're an adult it can be extremely difficult to get a hold of a language, much less become "fluent."

The situation now is very different from the immigration situation 75 years ago. Immigrants are so antagonized today that they can be reluctant and even outright refusing to assimilate. America's "melting pot" as always been spotty; ethnic groups always tend to stick together, because it makes them feel safer.

America's become so full of racist, nationalistic bigots that it partly makes me kind of glad (and sad at the same time) the government is so autocratic.

[SEGAsbest]

Immigrating into the US legally is a huge time and money drain for people wishing to immigrate, and can be pretty much impossibe if you A) don't have family in the US or have an US citizen willing to marry you or B) aren't well educated and/or have an employer willing to help you transfer. If you do have either of those, fees can add up to thousands of US dollars and waiting times can add up to years. Do you think the typical poor Mexican dude looking to build a family somewhere safe and stable can afford either?

The situation now is very different from the immigration situation 75 years ago. Immigrants are so antagonized today that they can be reluctant and even outright refusing to assimilate. America's "melting pot" as always been spotty; ethnic groups always tend to stick together, because it makes them feel safer.

America's become so full of racist, nationalistic bigots that it partly makes me kind of glad (and sad at the same time) the government is so autocratic.

Those rules you mention, A and B, are the rules that almost all developed nations have. Germany has them, the UK, France, and many others. They are perfectly acceptable and fair laws. Furthermore, you are correct, fees can get into the $1,000-2,000 range quite easily. However you are incorrect about years, that is not generally speaking the case, the USCIS aims for a 10-12 month wait time on approvals and they meet that goal, as it is the national average. For a short time it did take longer than a year in some major cities, they adjusted however within the past five years for this. Not too long ago the average processing time was 5 months, and it still is in cities with less immigrants to process.

http://1.usa.gov/mSdJiE

If immigrants today refuse to assimilate they know where the door is, they choose to come here and are not sent a invitation; Respect the community you move to, that means follow the rules, learn the customs and the language. Otherwise don't go, pretty simple.

Finally, nice closing comment, anybody who disagrees with illegal immigration is a nationalistic racist? Pure ad hominem.

[Sailing_Day]

Yes, there are similar laws around the world. But who do you think set that standard? There are other factors than the actual waiting times immigrants have to go through. Especially in Mexico, it can take up to a decade if you don't have any immediate family in the United States. This is because of the huge backlog of immigrants waiting to get processed, which is about ~1.3 Million. How many actually got admitted last year? Around ~70,000. Now, I'm not saying let everyone in, but you have that long of a waiting time, you can't throw your arms up in the air asking why you have an illegal immigration problem, and then continue to not do anything about it.

So you should just leave if you can't fit in? Most immigrants aren't here for a beer and a football game; they're here to make a living. They sure didn't wake up one day and thought, "Man! I love English and American customs!" The last thing is their mind is what some random person thinks about what they should or shouldn't do, because this is about getting better opportunities that you otherwise would not be able to find in a war-riddled Mexico. I find it hard to name many reasons, other than white Americans being terrified of losing their identity or dominance, for being so rejecting of Mexican immigrants.

The closing comment was about people antagonizing illegal immigrants, not people disagreeing with illegal immigration. It's hard to get some damn perspective when you don't go through what they're going through. I got denied service at a post office once because some crazed redneck asked for my green card (And he just wouldn't have it when I told him I don't have or need one). Even just the other day, I was paying for a ticket for an incline ride when the guy asked for ID and then asked if I was a citizen (For a damn $2 ticket, right?). There's more racist idiots around than you would like to think.

[SEGAsbest]

Yes, there are similar laws around the world. But who do you think set that standard? There are other factors than the actual waiting times immigrants have to go through. Especially in Mexico, it can take up to a decade if you don't have any immediate family in the United States. This is because of the huge backlog of immigrants waiting to get processed, which is about ~1.3 Million. How many actually got admitted last year? Around ~70,000. Now, I'm not saying let everyone in, but you have that long of a waiting time, you can't throw your arms up in the air asking why you have an illegal immigration problem, and then continue to not do anything about it.

I am glad you are not saying let everyone in, because no country should be expected to just allow people in without standards for who gets in and who doesn't, that and 1.3 million is a very large group of people. It'd be asinine to suggest the US should just allow anybody in. However our immigration problem isn't the fault of our current standards really, they are not ideal, but no immigration system is perfect and America's standards are easier to meet than most other first world nations.

Our illegal population could be resolved by simply cracking down on the employers of such individuals, with no jobs available to them the vast majority would return from whence they came.

So you should just leave if you can't fit in? Most immigrants aren't here for a beer and a football game; they're here to make a living. They sure didn't wake up one day and thought, "Man! I love English and American customs!" The last thing is their mind is what some random person thinks about what they should or shouldn't do, because this is about getting better opportunities that you otherwise would not be able to find in a war-riddled Mexico.

You shouldn't come if you cannot fit in. Pretty simple, I don't care what you are here for. If you want to move to another country, regardless of reasons, you need to respect established customs and culture. It is extremely rude to disrespect culture as a tourist, let alone a permanent resident.

There is a phrase attached to Americans that have your attitude as tourists, they are called an Ugly American. The stance you are arguing in favor of is quite similar to an Ugly American, one who disrespects the culture of a country they choose to visit.

I find it hard to name many reasons, other than white Americans being terrified of losing their identity or dominance, for being so rejecting of Mexican immigrants.

I hate these accusations, I don't support the racism that you speak of, I am not racist, but minorities are in no position to discuss how 'whites' are handling immigration. You know why? Because everybody is immigrating to historically 'white' nations in North America and Europe, nobody wants to immigrate to Mexico, nobody wants to immigrate to Ghana, nobody wants to immigrate to Chile. The only communities handling immigration anywhere near this scale are 'white' communities. We've never seen how hispanics, asians, or blacks react to this type of immigration in the modern era and if millions of Chinese moved into Mexico tomorrow you can bet they would encounter similar racism, so quit with the false sense of superiority and get off that ivory tower.

Furthermore, why is it okay for Japan's immigration system to be as tough as nails? Or for ultimate hypocrisy, since Mexico keeps coming up; Mexico doesn't allow illegal immigration and the US should? Mexico's immigration system isn't exactly perfect either, why is the US the focus?

The closing comment was about people antagonizing illegal immigrants, not people disagreeing with illegal immigration. It's hard to get some damn perspective when you don't go through what they're going through. I got denied service at a post office once because some crazed redneck asked for my green card (And he just wouldn't have it when I told him I don't have or need one). Even just the other day, I was paying for a ticket for an incline ride when the guy asked for ID and then asked if I was a citizen (For a damn $2 ticket, right?). There's more racist idiots around than you would like to think.

I have not seen anybody be unreasonable in this thread about immigration, furthermore, I think the reasons many are antagonistic towards them is their refusal to follow our rules and laws, the fact that they pay less taxes, and often refuse to learn English/don't know it. It is fine for illegals to disagree with our immigration system, it is ours to alter and change though, not theirs. It isn't their nation if they are not legal citizens of it, even if they act like it, their current attitude that they should have influence over our political system is absolutely preposterous and the equivalent of me illegally entering Australia to protest that Government's censorship of certain websites when it isn't my fight to fight, nor my Government to (attempt to) influence.

Finally, lets' clear this up, Americans' don't need to understand or have perspective on what illegal aliens are going through as it isn't our responsibility to. It is their responsibility to follow our rules if they want to live here however.

[Sailing_Day]

I am glad you are not saying let everyone in, because no country should be expected to just allow people in without standards for who gets in and who doesn't, that and 1.3 million is a very large group of people. It'd be asinine to suggest the US should just allow anybody in. However our immigration problem isn't the fault of our current standards really, they are not ideal, but no immigration system is perfect and America's standards are easier to meet than most other first world nations.

Our illegal population could be resolved by simply cracking down on the employers of such individuals, with no jobs available to them the vast majority would return from whence they came.

It's completely unrealistic to think you can crack down on this when it's so large and widespread, and even more fatuous to think people would just turn around and leave if they can't find a job here. Their chances aren't any better back home! People who want to come will come, legal or not. Furthermore, you can't say it isn't a problem of the system when you're allowing only miniscule amounts of people come in from a nation infested by civil war (Which is, by the way, funded by the United States' massive appetite for illegal drugs).

You shouldn't come if you cannot fit in. Pretty simple, I don't care what you are here for. If you want to move to another country, regardless of reasons, you need to respect established customs and culture. It is extremely rude to disrespect culture as a tourist, let alone a permanent resident.

Not fitting in is hardly the same thing as disrespecting a culture.

I hate these accusations, I don't support the racism that you speak of, I am not racist, but minorities are in no position to discuss how 'whites' are handling immigration. You know why? Because everybody is immigrating to historically 'white' nations in North America and Europe, nobody wants to immigrate to Mexico, nobody wants to immigrate to Ghana, nobody wants to immigrate to Chile. The only communities handling immigration anywhere near this scale are 'white' communities. We've never seen how hispanics, asians, or blacks react to this type of immigration in the modern era and if millions of Chinese moved into Mexico tomorrow you can bet they would encounter similar racism, so quit with the false sense of superiority and get off that ivory tower.

Are you absolutely daft? What you said amounts to "Well we're racist because they'd be racist if we were in their position!" Well no shovel sherlock. Does that make it right? Humans all act the same when put in the same situation. Why do you think white nations are the ones with the immigration problems? Because they have the money, the jobs and the stability! Do you really want to move into a country full of civil war, or a country with terrible human rights records, or a country fuddled with political and police corruption? So when you victimize yourself because godforbid people try to find a good life anyway they can, it is you who should get off your ivory tower. You're not the only one with problems.

Furthermore, why is it okay for Japan's immigration system to be as tough as nails? Or for ultimate hypocrisy, since Mexico keeps coming up; Mexico doesn't allow illegal immigration and the US should? Mexico's immigration system isn't exactly perfect either, why is the US the focus?

Don't flip things around, because it's completely different circumstances. We're talking about illegal immigration from Mexico into the US.

I have not seen anybody be unreasonable in this thread about immigration, furthermore, I think the reasons many are antagonistic towards them is their refusal to follow our rules and laws, the fact that they pay less taxes, and often refuse to learn English/don't know it. It is fine for illegals to disagree with our immigration system, it is ours to alter and change though, not theirs. It isn't their nation if they are not legal citizens of it, even if they act like it, their current attitude that they should have influence over our political system is absolutely preposterous and the equivalent of me illegally entering Australia to protest that Government's censorship of certain websites when it isn't my fight to fight, nor my Government to (attempt to) influence.

Finally, lets' clear this up, Americans' don't need to understand or have perspective on what illegal aliens are going through as it isn't our responsibility to. It is their responsibility to follow our rules if they want to live here however.

This is the dying breath of your credibility. Why should anyone care about our biggest minority is going through? Hahahaha. Americans shouldn't care about other people's problems! After all, you've got food on your table, a roof over your head and people who care for you, tough luck to all those poor illegal immigrants! This view is precisely why there's so many problems. You forget that you're the lucky one for being born in a country where you have opportunity, and that most people don't have all your privileges. Anyhow, I'll see you in 25 years. This wave of immigration, legal or not, is changing the face of the US the same way the wave of immigration from a similarly war and poverty riddled Europe changed the face of the US nearly a century ago. You either flow with the change, or you throw a fit and try to find ways to stop it, and fail. Either way, things are changing.

edit: sigh... godforbid there's an actual intelligent exchange of opinions on this site, on a thread that gets on average 1 post every 2 months... sigh.

[cortjezter]

the debate forum is strictly moderated by the rules.

let's keep the double posting rules in mind. that includes back-forth hijacking of a thread by 2 people...

[aqpl3seeD]

just a word here from someone thats not a US citizen.

i read all your comments, and i must say that while views differ, you all have one in common: in europe, most of you would be considered so far right wing that you risk going to jail. as a matter of fact, europeans are so far left winged, most americans despise us for being socialists and communists, althos we really are not :p

anyway, i would say that the thing with imigration lies, liek most things, in the intention.
WHY exactly do you come into this country?
in austria, we have a really big problem with muslims and people from africa, whic are drug dealers 90% of the time. that does not make all of them bad people obviously, but it raises the question, WHY do we need them and WHY do we even let them into our country.
we have a policy that if you are fleeing from war or something, the FIRST secure country has to take you in.
austria is surounded by secure countries only. in fact, if you want to imigrate to austria from africa, you have to go through at least two save countries to land here. most of them come from spain to france to italy to austria. why dont they stay in spain, france or italy? because their sole purpouse is it to come here, live from our money and sell their drugs to our kids.
and that is something i cant accept. if you need help, if you are willing to work here, live by our rules, then you are welcome, because frankly, in austria we need people like that. and ill be damned if ill say one bad word about those honest people. but for everyone else, i think we should put them into jail and throw them out whenw e have the chance.

also, austrian jail is like a 3star hotel in hungaray or poland-.-

To be fair, being a European affords you the luxury of having national neighbors who's economies are strong and state control much more organized and concrete than that in Mexico. This is a completely different animal.

I don't like the immigration debate because it's always looked at in the wrong way. The real answer to this problem doesn't have anything to do with whether or not illegals have rights once their inside the border. Fact is, people will always try to immigrate illegally if their lives where they were born are bad. Strengthening Mexico is in the best interests of the United States. If their children could go to decent schools and they could work or live in a place where the police are actually effective and the rule of law actually stands for something they wouldn't be trying to escape. Ignoring Central and South America economically is one of the glaring flaws in U.S. international economic policy and always has been. Chile and Mexico are perfect examples. The Federal Government needs to fix that but it'll be a very slow process.

In the meantime, deport them or process them... either way you can't stop them from coming... in the meantime.

[Wiggymaster]

The argument that what happened 100 and 200 years ago should still be going on in the modern era simply doesn't hold water and is entirely unrealistic

So then you're saying that you're against the Constitution as it's written, and don't think we should be conducting trials, sessions of Congress, and elections the way they were done back then?

Don't get me wrong; I actually agree with this sentiment more than most people would - I despise the electoral college and the way the justice system conducts itself. There are many things I wish to change. However, I certainly wouldn't dismiss everything that came out of those time periods.

To say we shouldn't be doing certain things just because they were done 100 to 200 years ago is foolish. It suggests that nothing truly good enough to stand the test of time came out of those eras. If that's the case, then our country is pretty much doomed, because - guess what - it was born in that era.

Also, you're highly misinformed if you think it's easy to emigrate to this country nowadays. As Sailing_Day said, if you don't have a lot of money and contacts over here, you're not getting in.

Though, Sailing_Day, I don't think that lack of education is a good excuse. Why should we allow people into this country who AREN'T well educated? I think a basic high school education comparable to what is offered here is fair to ask for (especially when what's offered over here is so low in standard compared to most other industrialized countries). We don't need any more unproductive citizens who can't spell cat or order food from McDonalds in English. Though they had an easier time than most people would today, my great grandparents still worked hard to get here, and that including learning English and plenty of other things.

That said, I'm all for student visas and foreign exchange programs. If you can earn your way into a college in this country, you deserve to be able to go.

Strengthening Mexico is in the best interests of the United States.

I only agree with this if - and I'm going to take a lot of flak for this - strengthening Mexico meant annexing Mexico.

Mexico is one of the most corrupt nations on this continent. It has a worse organized crime syndicate than Sicily did during the mid 20th century, and probably on par with Afghanistan in terms of lawlessness. The drug cartels rule Mexico with an iron fist, as they do most of Central America. If we're going to pour our money, resources and time into fixing another country's messes, that country should not have the right to sovereignty, and we should have complete and total rights to their land and resources. Now, I was against the war in Iraq for that very reason - invasion is a nasty business, and going about it piecemeal and not calling it out for what it is turns my stomach.

Regardless, If you believe that the United States should be an imperial power, then yes, we should be strengthening Mexico. Aside from that, under NO circumstances should we spend any effort helping them in an official capacity. Their government cannot be trusted as a partner in any form, as their government is completely under the thumb of the cartels either by willing cooperation or intimidation. Now, I'm also against the war on drugs in the way it is fought - namely, forbidding what people can put into their bodies and empowering these criminal empires by creating high demand for illegal goods - but offering any assistance to these nations when they are so deeply tied to their criminal culture is out-of-the-question.

Our resources are sparse as it is. We need not simply throw money and resources at other nations when they can't fend for themselves. It's going to take a revolution in Mexico to reverse things - not us.

[aqpl3seeD]

Strengthening Mexico doesn't have anything to do with America being an Imperial Power. It has to do with economics and prosperity. I think it's obvious that when I talk about strengthening Mexico I'm referring to the lawful government and not the crime syndicates.

The general population won't be risking their butts doing dangerous/illegal jobs if there was something well-paying and safe to do instead. That being said, the death penalty needs to be swift and final for the leaders and would-be leaders (lieutenants) from these syndicates.

The drug trade was allowed to take hold because money had to be generated somewhere and some people figured out a way to make billions, albeit illegally, rather than 'run for the border'.

[Sailing_Day]

Though, Sailing_Day, I don't think that lack of education is a good excuse. Why should we allow people into this country who AREN'T well educated? I think a basic high school education comparable to what is offered here is fair to ask for (especially when what's offered over here is so low in standard compared to most other industrialized countries). We don't need any more unproductive citizens who can't spell cat or order food from McDonalds in English. Though they had an easier time than most people would today, my great grandparents still worked hard to get here, and that including learning English and plenty of other things.

Oh, I think you should need to know at least basic English and a basic education to get in, this goes back to the issue of 'we can't let everyone in.' I just don't agree with needing at least a Master's degree (and a company willing to sponsor you) to be able to get in.

I only agree with this if - and I'm going to take a lot of flak for this - strengthening Mexico meant annexing Mexico.

Well, I'd only agree with this if a weak Mexico wasn't detrimental to the United States. But fact of the matter is, leaving Mexico untouched is damaging us in a plethora of ways. The problem is that Mexico's central government lacks much authority in the border and gulf regions, and the drug cartels would honestly not be that huge of a problem if it weren't for the United State's drug appetite, which the government is not making any effort to curb, and no, making drugs illegal is not keeping drug appetite in check. People who want drugs will get them, legal or not.