Sheik, the never-ending debate

[jab]

Guys, Gals, and the robotic CortJ...

I am sorry I brought this to GoNintendo. Honestly, after seeing many heated fanboy debates, I wanted mainly to see what your reactions toward this highly dangerous topic.


After seeing how bad this topic needs to be locked away and never seen again I have this to say:

Do something constructive. Instead of arguing, go play Portal. It's much better than fighting over stuff that doesn't mean ANYTHING.


Also, I am NOT implying the thread needs to be locked, I just wanted to hear opinions, not squabbling.......

[Next-Gen-Gamer]

Is the manga canon? If not, then it's completely irrelevant.

I still like the theory that Sheik lacks gender. However, I'm of the belief that Sheik is a girl, because it's strongly alluded to that she was simply cross-dressing. Isn't Zelda even called a tomboy at some point in OoT?

[cortjezter]

to me, i guess it's what gender sheik is INTENDED to be, and while i'm not familiar with any revealing manga, the source material OoT, doesn't really say, but the character's design is overwhelmingly male-looking.

sure, it's zelda underneath the wraps, but zelda is herself. sheik is another personality and identity, obviously meant to be as unlike zelda as possible. as a child, i dressed for halloween one year as he-man. had i dressed as teela--issues aside--that wouldn't make teela a guy. besides, sheik could be based on a real character in hyrulian lore for all we know.

long story short, i vote male.

[NintendoWiiForever]

sheik is just zelda disguised as a man...making him a women.
since when is a manga that you found on the internet proof? i don't feel you proved anything.
if you were to actually examine sheik ...like i have, you would notice that his crotch is female as well his booty. what makes a man a man and a woman a woman is all in the pants.
sheik is only supposed to portray a man.
if i cross dressed and made my self look like a woman then i would still be a man.
for more proof examine sheiks feminine legs, feminine hands and feminine eyes
[img=mini]http://www.ganonstower.com/wallpapers/sheik_800x600.jpg[/img]

In the original 'Peter Pan' play, Peter was played by a female actress. Does this make Peter a girl? No.

really that is not a good argument. your comparing an actor (or in this case, actress) to the world of video games and the plot of loz which are completely unrelated. it is not relevant at all. worst argument i have ever heard.
actually you just proved my point! just because that actress dressed and portrayed a boy does not mean she is a boy.

[Next-Gen-Gamer]

I did a bit of research, to finally add some definitive evidence. The manga you were referring to was from Akira Himekawa. The manga series of The Legend of Zelda was (obviously) given consent by Nintendo. However, it has been said that the manga series is NOT canon to the actual franchise. This is mostly because of the stories often contradicting the games they're based on. According to the Zelda Wiki, Nintendo themselves have denied canon.

The long time debate may still continue. However, all things considered, there seems to be a lot more (canon) that says (or implies) Sheik is a woman.

[cortjezter]

sheik is just zelda disguised as a man...making him a women.
since when is a manga that you found on the internet proof? i don't feel you proved anything.
if you were to actually examine sheik ...like i have, you would notice that his crotch is female as well his booty. what makes a man a man and a woman a woman is all in the pants.
sheik is only supposed to portray a man.
if i cross dressed and made my self look like a woman then i would still be a man.
for more proof examine sheiks feminine legs, feminine hands and feminine eyes
[img=mini]http://www.ganonstower.com/wallpapers/sheik_800x600.jpg[/img]

In the original 'Peter Pan' play, Peter was played by a female actress. Does this make Peter a girl? No.

really that is not a good argument. your comparing an actor (or in this case, actress) to the world of video games and the plot of loz which are completely unrelated. it is not relevant at all. worst argument i have ever heard.
actually you just proved my point! just because that actress dressed and portrayed a boy does not mean she is a boy.

we're not talking cross-dressing here. that's simply one person dressing as another gender. this is a case of a whole different person or character, so what's in question is really about sheik, not the person underneath, because then you're talking about zelda, not sheik.

think of it this way: if zelda weren't underneath, and sheik was a real person, what gender would s/he be?

[SteveC1990]

think of it this way: if zelda weren't underneath, and sheik was a real person, what gender would s/he be?

the only problem is that zelda is underneath! it simply is zelda in disguise hidding from ganon... therefore she is a girl protayed as a male...

[NintendoWiiForever]

exactly!
the problem with say that Cort is that zelda IS underneath those cloths
the character Sheik obviously has both male and female traits.
sheik is supposed to be a guy. thats what zelda was trying to do but just because sheik was supposed to be a guy doesn't mean he is. ( and i call sheik him because that is the character zelda is portraying)

over all sheiks character is a guy but sheiks body is a female.

[cortjezter]

ugh.. i don't think you people are either reading or grasping what i'm getting at.

this isn't even a thread about zelda. it's about shiek. forget zelda. going back to the halloween analogy, because it is exactly the same principle:

if you were a guy and dressed up as peach in a costume, peach wouldn't be a guy just because there's a guy under the costume. unfortunately in shiek's case, the line between male or female isn't immediately visible.

at best, we can only say shiek is androgynous. we can't tell if the character is meant to be male or female by looking, but because it's a character meant to be anything but zelda and looks more masculine than feminine, i'm inclined to believe that means shiek is a guy. besides, in the real world, 'shiek' is a male term.

[NintendoWiiForever]

like i said sheik is supposed to be a guy.
i already answered your situation and mine.
if i was to dress up as sheik it would be fine considering he is supposed to be a man (thats why i call him a him)

and in my situation his gender is female.
also yes sheik in real life refers to a male but that does not applie in the zelda universe

[LordTyroxx]

Ummm....neither...it's just a bunch of polygons that create a figure.


Lol, anyway...

I think Sheik is a male. Sheik isn't a real person...If it was, he would be male. But he is just a persona created by zelda.

common argument :

I am a girl, but i dress up in boys clothes, and start calling myself 'Tommy'. Everybody thinks that I am a boy. Does that make me a boy? ( The correct answer is 'Hell No', underneath the clothes, i still have girl parts, i still think like a girl, and consider myself a girl)

Let's look at this example. You aren't supposed to ask if the person dressing up is a guy or a girl, you are supposed to ask what they are dressing up as. (because we are talking about sheik, not zelda)

Rhetorical Question: Is sheik trying to look like a boy, or is zelda?
If sheik is trying to look like a boy, she is a cross dresser. 0.0
If zelda is trying to look like a boy (and she is), zelda is a girl, and sheik is a guy.

Good quote from another website:

Leonado di Vinci once stated that "the chair can be destroyed, so it is not real. But the idea of the chair cannot be destroyed, so it is real" this is the same thing with Sheik, the idea of Sheik is a Male but the Sheik itself is just Zelda, a Female.

Zelda is not Shiek, Shiek is not Zelda. Shiek, if he exists, is male.

[Next-Gen-Gamer]

this isn't even a thread about zelda. it's about shiek. forget zelda. going back to the halloween analogy, because it is exactly the same principle:

It is about Zelda. If it wasn't, there wouldn't even be a debate. We'd all just acknowledge that Sheik is a guy. But you have to include Zelda, because at the end of the day, that's who it is. If it wasn't, then Sheik wouldn't reveal herself to be Zelda in the game.

if you were a guy and dressed up as peach in a costume, peach wouldn't be a guy just because there's a guy under the costume. unfortunately in shiek's case, the line between male or female isn't immediately visible.

You have it backwards. It's not about the character we're dressing up as. It's about us. The whole argument about Sheik being male is, "Zelda altered/changed her appearance." If I alter/change my appearance by dressing up as Peach for Halloween, that doesn't make me a woman. Plus these are somewhat different situations. You're talking about men dressing up as a character we know to be female, and you're using it to try and somehow compare it to a woman changing into a character that didn't have a gender previously because the character didn't even exist previously.

but because it's a character meant to be anything but zelda and looks more masculine than feminine, i'm inclined to believe that means shiek is a guy.

Except for the part where Sheik reveals herself to be Zelda.

besides, in the real world, 'shiek' is a male term.

That's probably why Zelda went with the name, right?

There are two things above all else that bother me about Sheik being a guy. First is Sheik's hidden face. If Zelda (allegedly) has the ability to change her gender, why couldn't she change her facial features significantly?

The second issue pertains to Sheik in Smash Bros. Now before everyone attacks, I am fully aware that the Smash Bros. series is NOT canon. Let me just get all of the non-canon stuff out of the way first. You can't say Sheik is a woman based on the movements and voice of the character you play as. However, what can be construed as canon is the description of Sheik that comes with the trophy. This is canon because every description that comes with every trophy is accurate to the franchise each item/character that's represented. The description of Sheik (Trophy #239) for OoT refers to her as a woman.

To reiterate, Sheik the playable character in Melee is NON-CANON. The description of the Sheik character from the LoZ franchise (in Melee) is CANON.

[cortjezter]

again, an extensive discourse that completely misses my points and doesn't seem to understand any of what i wrote... i guess it truly is a never-ending debate. some will think and focus on zelda, where i think she's irrelevant. but i can understand why some might see her as a factor. really, the only role she plays--and all the above is proof--is that zelda serves only as a debate on top of the root debate...something which complicates and confuses the real question.

anyway, i'll just simplify it... shiek is either no-gender, or both, and unfortunately, there's no definitive information either way. but my impression, all things considered, is male.

[b-osiris]

Sheik is just Zelda disguised (or transformed magically) as a guy (to evade being caught by Ganon). That's it really...

[Next-Gen-Gamer]

again, an extensive discourse that completely misses my points and doesn't seem to understand any of what i wrote... i guess it truly is a never-ending debate. some will think and focus on zelda, where i think she's irrelevant.

How can Zelda be irrelevant? She's turns into Sheik, therefor she is Sheik. Regardless of gender, it's always Zelda. That's what I'm getting at. How can you make a valid point in a debate that only exists because of Zelda?

[blueger]

again, an extensive discourse that completely misses my points and doesn't seem to understand any of what i wrote... i guess it truly is a never-ending debate. some will think and focus on zelda, where i think she's irrelevant.

How can Zelda be irrelevant? She's turns into Sheik, therefor she is Sheik. Regardless of gender, it's always Zelda. That's what I'm getting at. How can you make a valid point in a debate that only exists because of Zelda?

I really don't know what to think here, though it seems unlikely that Zelda would undergo a sex-change during HER transformation. Sheik could just be a gender-less alter ego. I wish we could have an official say on this from Miyamoto or Eiji Aonuma or whoever knows.

[kittykatz5k]

A very well hidden female.

[Sinister Gaze]

Even before I knew Shiek was Zelda (which was quite a while, since when I was young, I only got to play the game in fragments.) I assumed that Sheik was a woman. She just looked like it.

Although in OoT, (which ultimately dumfounded me that it was said) Princess Ruto herself quotes Sheik to be a "nice man". Not kidding. I freaked, cuz I always thought Sheik was supposed to be a she. Ruto says so sometime during the whole Water Temple escapade.

Anyway, the way I see it, (pardon the disturbing image) if a guy dresses up as a girl, does it make him a girl? No.
If a guy dresses up as a girl and calls himself Cassy.....does it make him a girl? No.

Sheik's a girl. :/

Something tells me jab was the only one to vote the third option.

[stinklesAFI]

Ok are you referring to Sheik as a character? Because then he's a dude regardless of who's underneath. Like if you just met Sheik then you would think he's a dude.

Somewhere on the internet is a picture of a page from the manga that easaly explains a lot.

yeah you just shot yourself in the foot here, you need to remember that just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true.

[Next-Gen-Gamer]

Somewhere on the internet is a picture of a page from the manga that easaly explains a lot.

yeah you just shot yourself in the foot here, you need to remember that just because it's on the internet doesn't mean it's true.

To be fair to him, the picture he's referring to exists, and its from the manga series of the Legend of Zelda. Of course he was wrong in thinking it was canon.

[Creedy316]

Sheik is Zelda. who is a girl. dressing herself up as a male sheikah as a disguise to hide from ganondorf.

so technically. sheik's a girl. disguised as a male.

....thats it.

[cortjezter]

Sheik is Zelda. who is a girl. dressing herself up as a male sheikah as a disguise to hide from ganondorf.

so technically. sheik's a girl. disguised as a male.

....thats it.

but the debate is just that... dressing up as a male character doesn't change zelda OR sheik. a male sheikah is still that, no matter who is under the costume

[NES_Master]

This is kinda like the chicken or the egg argument. There's never going to be a straight answer.

[sharkh20]

Cort, you cannot just take out Zelda from the conversation, because it IS all about Zelda. Acting as someone else does not change who you are underneath. It is an obvious answer that you keep trying to work around somehow. Sheik is a girl in boys clothing, thats it, thats that, thats all, end of story. And don't tell me I am not grasping what you are saying. I know what you are saying. All it is, is you trying to be philosophical about it, but there is no point. You are what you are. If you cannot understand that then you have a problem on your hands. Until you go through some major operations, nothing is changed.

[Creedy316]

this is sorta pointless. sheik is a chick.

soo....if i wear a dress.....will that make me a woman??

O.o