rawkergirl wrote:I don't really have a lot to say on this topic, but I was invited here and I am female so I feel I should say something.
The whole argument of sexism annoys me greatly simply because it turns into man vs. woman instead of being about equality (as it should be). For example, feminists want women to be equal to men. Sounds good right? Right. Here's the problem, most "feminists" simply change the attack from woman to men and get all upset over non-important issues instead of focusing on the big picture. For example, I know of feminists that get upset and the term "mankind" - instead believing that we should use the term "humankind." Is that really an issue worth fighting over? Technically, that comes down to a matter of proper grammar over anything else (fyi, when speaking about a large group of people whose gender is unknown or mixed, it is grammatically correct to use the male word). Do I get their overall point? Yes. The problem is that it makes the whole feminist movement seem extremely petty and silly to be quite honest. Honestly, there are bigger issues than grammatic rules. How about checking out the whole "women make less money working the same job as a man" thing. (fyi, I believe the paycheck of any individule should be based upon their work performance and nothing else - ie: don't just give a woman more money because "it's the proper thing to do," do it because of their work [same goes for a man])
Also, too many feminists I meet don't want women to be equal to men, they want women to be higher or better than men. That's not right either. Sexism can go either way.
Now, bringing it into gaming. Have I encountered sexism due to gaming? Yes. I don't play online often (no major reason, I'm just more into single-player experiences), but I have encountered various types of sexism online. There are those who simply refuse to play with females because they think we cannot play well. There are those who will play with females, but berate and mock them throughout the entire gaming session. Of course, there is also the "Omg, a girl that plays games. Wanna video chat?" reaction (not really sexism, but equally annoying).
HOWEVER, the majority of gamers are getting over this mindset (if it was ever really there in the majority to begin with - something I wonder about). Best example I have: I am currently in a Game Design course at my college. I am the only girl in the class, but I am not treated any differently and all the guys speak to me normally.
I guess my main point is this: the cure to sexism is thinking about people equally. People are different. The genders are different. I don't deny that fact. However, I think it is important that we don't think less or more about people due to their gender, ethnicity, or whatever. People are people, no matter what.
Heh, guess I had more to say than I originally thought.
holy crap, i freaking love you. THIS is what im talking about. i wanted you in the thread because i wanted, no matter the persuasion, an opinion coming from a female, and here not only did we get one, but we got one that totally kicks ass.
Nintend()\/\/|\|312 wrote:I posed a lot of questions in my previous post and, after a lot of thought, I think I can answer a couple of them.
One of the things I was wondering about was whether or not stereotypes are sexist. Now I can finally say with some confidence that my answer is a definite "not necessarily". It really comes down to the person's motivation behind using a stereotype that determines whether that person is being discriminatory or not.
For example, using stereotypes for comedic purposes is generally not an act of discrimination. People find ridiculous semi-truths in all their forms to be quite hilarious. Shows like "The Simpsons" are based off of making fun of stereotypes. The people who write for the show, and hopefully all those that watch it, know that the stereotypes they use are ridiculous and are not supposed to be taken seriously or as being remotely truthful.
This helps answer one of my questions which was why I was alright with Peach following female stereotypes yet not Samus. I think it is because the Super Mario series isn't one to be taken seriously and Nintendo knows that. Peach is a ridiculously useless princess stereotype in the same way that Mario is a ridiculously over-the-top Italian stereotype. Using a recent example, it was evident in SMG2's writing that Nintendo was making fun of how ridiculous everything in the Mario universe was. However, since the Metroid universe is taken a little more seriously, one has cause to be a little suspicious when stereotypes start popping up.
So, is Samus' portrayal in M:OM sexist or not? My answer is: I don't know. I think the only people that could answer that would be the people who developed the game.
One of the reasons why I think people, myself included, were prematurely labeling the game as sexist is because our own versions of Samus were not consistent with the version presented in the game. I think a lot of people viewed Samus as kind of a female version of Boba Fett. We were expecting her to be a little more confident, a little less emotionally damaged and for her to maybe be a little more snarky about taking orders from Adam. (Something along the lines of a "He's no good to me dead." kind of remark or two.) Now, I'm not saying that the way Samus was portrayed in the game is necessarily a bad thing. A lot of people like Samus acting this way, including the game designers, even though many others, including myself, do not. So, when noticing that the Samus in M:OM was weaker than how we perceived her, our immediate knee-jerk reaction was to claim that the developers were being sexist. However, this accusation was unwarranted because we really didn't know what was going through the developers minds when they were creating M:OM's Samus.
Now, if they thought that having an emotional, unconfident Samus would make her easier to sympathize with, then the developers weren't being sexist. I personally think that this was probably the case. They probably thought that people would be intimidated by Samus' character if she was portrayed as a stoic, battle-hardened woman that would shoot you in the face as soon as look at you.
However, if they chose to make Samus so squishy because she is a woman and all women are emotionally unstable, lacking of confidence and need a man to order them around, telling them what to do, then they were being sexist. I haven't played through the entire game yet but so far I've found little proof that this wasn't what they were thinking. However, I also haven't found any proof that this was what they were thinking and that is why I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.
stereo types can also be exploited for making points about stereotypes
look at star trek, everyone there is a stereotype, and they were made there by roddenberry because he wanted to show that in the future, people dont even think about, or care about those things.
"One of the reasons why I think people, myself included, were prematurely labeling the game as sexist is because our own versions of Samus were not consistent with the version presented in the game. I think a lot of people viewed Samus as kind of a female version of Boba Fett."
dude, i freaking love you too! im so glad that at least one of you has come around to realizing the effect that your projection had on your opinion of the situation.
the intention, at least to me was clear
you see, japan may have a sexist culture, but you guys are assuming that sakamoto treats samus as his
waifu and not his
daughtersomething we often see with the imaginative, and the right brained (which is why it occurs in women so much) is the personification of things, even the created.
i truly believe that sakamoto loves samus. not in a creepy love plus way, but in a a fatherly way, shes his girl, and that shines through adam, who he finds very important, because adam is his way of communicating with samus, anything else, and hes just talking to a piece of paper.
he was also illustrating a point about power, and how even if you are iron man, you have to take off that armor sometime...then who are you? who, really, is tony stark?. samus in the gameplay is actually MORE badass than she ever has been,probably because she is freaking immortal. but in the cutscenes, we see her powering down her visor...thats when we see the samus that samus doesnt want you to know about. pay attention to when she has the visor on, and off... visor on, badass mode: activated, visor off "confession time"
as revealed later, interaction with the metroids seems to awaken emotion... and a sudden onburst of emotion, without knowing how to control it, can really make for some over dramatic moments
this happened to data in star trek, after installing his emotions chip. while i wish i could get something other than this horrible movie as an example, it must donow interesting in itself is the emotional elements tied to the metroids, and while its best left for a different topic, ill just point out that metroids are chozo made, and its entirely possible they were made using chozo DNA, and of course, you know about the chozo.
and once again, im loosing track of my thoughts, so ill wrap up that portion, and move on.
sexism in games is largely a product of the lack of females.
i mean really, more female players = more characters adjusted for female tastes = less sexism.
i actually caved in and watched those movie bob videos, and he made some good points, one in particular i like is the bit about gamers finding virtual girls to be more important than real ones
i mean, do you honestly think that the average xbl player is truly sexist? hell no, hes incredibly nervous and insecure about women, so he hates them, and makes them feel unwanted so he can shift the focus to someone other than himself.
we see it every day, in politics, in sexuality, on xbl, whatever, its all there, people will shut down good arguments by calling someone a "nazi" or "homophobic" or "x-phobic"
i mean, no matter what point you just made, most people are idiots, and suddenly focus on the "fact" that you are this or that.
ill admit, ive made my "get back in the kitchen joke" a few times, but i spare no man or woman in my comedy (no really, some people laugh) but i dont actually believe that sh*t
of course, i dont know if that counts, because id rather cook anyways.
really, no, REALLY, if girls would just greet the hostility, nobody could do anything. walking away just further proves their point that you are submissive, and getting angry scares them, and will just lead to you getting pissed, and them becoming even more insulting and confrontational.
and guys, if you see this shovel going on, dont be an a**hole, intervene, and i dont mean white knight it, dont start screaming at people and telling the girl your there to save her, you need to just act like a man ffs, if everyone is harassing her, be the one to treat her like anyone else. im sure she'll appreciate it, and it will blow the minds of the other people there. now this doesnt work as well online, because again, these people find it easy to release the anger of their insecurity over the web, but no reason you shouldnt try.
anyways, loosing myself again here...
alright i guess all end it by saying female gamers need to realize how disgustingly awkward and socially inept some of these gamers are, and that the smarter of you guys need to realize that its easier to find a girl to respect than it is to find a girl who doesnt like to be respected.
"There is no "i" in "we"... unless you are playing video games, then there is like, two."
-Gaming proverb
This thread was inspired by posts regarding whether or not Samus was portrayed in a sexist manner in M:OM, so we could go with that. This is a gaming forum, so we might like to discuss why there seems to be so many men saving princesses from evil male characters in games compared to women saving princes from evil females characters. There's a plethora of other non-gaming topics out their too, so feel free to post whatever you please.
